Roko Lessons

I can't see any reason why this might backfire.

Heikki Pitkänen

”We got out of our way to help some one and THIS is our reward?” Oh Yay, sweetie… Understand that if you expect a reward then you are not helping. You just crave atention and approval.

Rodrigo Ourcilleon

Kind of like when Claire realized she was de facto living with Marten already.

Daryl Sawyer

Brun and Millie sit and eat cereal together every day.

Sean Kinlin

@Stephen Wells: that's about how I imagined Brun and Millefeuille finally realizing that as well. 👍

Zak Reichle

They rode an escalator from the bread shop to Roko’s apartment

Mad Marie

Even mutual indifference is a *kind* of relationship.

Mark

You and Anthony Hopkins both :). An aside, I hate the "people on the spectrum can't do social situations" trope - some have more trouble than others, and we all react in different ways. And... if you turn social skills into a special interest, or teach them *like skills* rather than assuming people will instinctively grasp shifting social contexts that even neurotypicals disagree about... it would actually make social interactions less tense.

Sean Morgan

I don't actually think Yay is using Eliot for their own goals. Yay is an emotional teenager - which means they often genuinely care about others, but don't like to express it in that way, because it makes them feel vulnerable. The "shower us with affection" thing is something they like, and is nice, but it isn't the main driver - it's the smokescreen for the vulnerability. Re: tact and manipulation - there's a line here. Many neurotypicals fall so far on the tact line that they do become passive-aggressive/manipulating (I manage a temple, so I see it a lot with the committees and such). But some neurodivergents and NT-jerks can take it too far the other direction, and not learn some basic tactics for smoothing over suggestions, etc. On balance, though, I'd probably prefer the honesty in these kinds of interactions. Especially if it comes from a place of concern.

Sean Morgan

I honestly think it could be either way with equally good odds of either being right.

Daniel Rydberg

Well, technically, every person you interact with you most likely have some kind of relationship with, although the depth may vary greatly.

Daniel Rydberg

(waking up together every morning) We have a relationship?

Stephen Wells

Wonder how the relationship between Millefeuille and Brun is going.

Daniel Rydberg

Isn't that how criminal organisations operate?

David Paul

@Stephen Wells: Most of the people I catch trying to deceive tend to use logical fallacies a lot more than those who simply try to persuade. That said, part of that is I'm relatively good at spotting logical fallacies and relatively poor at spotting outright lies, so there's definitely some cognitive bias in that statistic. That said, it feels like spotting logical fallacies is nearly sufficient. Using that, I know which political party is lying: pretty much all of them. (That said, I do have a ranked chart regarding how bad each seem to be, so I still have a reason to vote. It's just unfortunately about who I dislike less.)

Some Ed

Being tactful *can* be part of being manipulating, but it doesn't have to be. There can be tact without manipulation and manipulation without tact. I think a key difference between tact being manipulation and motivation is the degree to which you consider the other person's situation. If you are only doing it to get your goals met and you don't care about their goals, then it's probably manipulation, especially if your goals are counter to theirs. However, if you're trying to get them to achieve their goals to assist you in achieving your goals and they are not opposed to you achieving your goals, then that's motivation. That said, I've heard some claim it's manipulation if your goals are larger in scope than the other person's, even if they would have otherwise been happy with the situation. I've also heard the claim that it's manipulation if the person who initiated the exchange spent less effort to help the person who agreed to it, regardless of how much effort might have been saved by either party. I believe that might be due to not understanding that some people are profoundly better at some tasks than others. I still go to my ex to get my taxes done, because she spends maybe 10 minutes to do my taxes, when it would take me days to get them done on myself. I may be better at math, but she's better at paperwork. The computer does the math, so that math skill is largely irrelevant. As a lawyer, she knows exactly what numbers go where on tax documents, which I always struggled to figure out.

Some Ed

Did Yay just announce their candidacy for president?

Michael Keogh

Is she now deliberately trying for Bratty Sub? Intriguing...

Stephen Wells

Phrasing it that way is not tactful, though :)

Stephen Wells

That seems very much like the difference between persuasion and deception. They may use very similar skills, but it does actually matter whether you're sincere or not.

Stephen Wells

Bull? Welcome to the china shop.

Chris Heg

Made me think of a jack in the box that yells in a Boston accent

Zak Reichle

You shall reap the whirlwind.

Ruth Merriam

Jeph, I don't remember giving you permission to publish my internal monologue. My lawyers will be contacting you soon.

Danny insert meta joke here Roose

Are

Jeremy

I honestly think Yay is winding Roko up in that last panel.

Randall Norman Pick

Yep! I feel like this is also me.

"So Yay, think of people like bonsai..." Ooh no; even worse. And yet...

YsabetJustYsabet

Playing devil's advocate here (because this original comment is breaking my brain), isn't part of being tactful exploiting what we know about people's sensitivities and reactions to deliver a message in a way where it will be as well-received as possible? Therapists get to know you first so that they can draw on your history to help you find your blind spots and self-reflect: that's arguably exploiting personal history to manipulate someone into recognizing some of their personal flaws. Matt is right that both words have negative connotations...but I don't think Nascha is wrong. 😅🤯

Sarah Manx

This is a very useful metaphor that I feel would apply to neurodivergent people. I myself credit my studies of acting as improving my social skills and making me excellent at customer service and business "soft skills". Technically it's using acting to emotionally manipulate the people around me, but I always maintain that the technical skills employed by me do not make my intent any less genuine in my attempts to make people feel easy with me and to make social interaction (which I long struggled with) feel more normal than it otherwise would had I not been using "technique" to smooth the way. I feel like explaining how to use techniques for interacting better with people to Yay can really only be beneficial to both Yay Themselves and everyone they interact with.

MercuryBuddha

Manipulate has some pretty negative connotations, but I can't think of a better term. Exploit is definitely not good. I think what both Roko and Yay are missing here is that Yay is focusing on their own goals. Getting Elliot into therapy is a win for Yay, when it should be a win for Elliot. Helping Elliot (in whatever form that takes - it might not actually be therapy) should be Yay's goal.

Matt Pedone

Is... is that not what tact is? I'm with Yay on this one, I thought that's what we were all doing this whole time o.O

Nascha Morrison