Sacred Symbols+, Episode 501 | The Live Service Paradox
Added 2026-02-07 17:00:17 +0000 UTCIt's me, Colin. Please welcome Summon Sign and Punching Up host Brad Ellis and LSM editor Lockmort to Sacred+. This week, we convene to discuss a pressing topic: The never-ending growth of gaming's live service sector, and the incredible amount of consumer animosity that has built up around it. On one hand, the most popular games in the world -- Roblox, Fortnite, GTA, and so on -- are ubiquitously live service. They have massive audiences, churn enormous sums of cash, and experience endless and unsatiated demand for new content, all of which completely dwarf the collective single-player arena. On the other hand, it seems that nine out of 10 games that appear in this space are obliterated by audiences, with almost no room for dissent. For many of these products, their fates are sealed before they ever hit the market. Just what's going on here? Let's get into it.
Comments
Am I the only one that finds it strange that Lock plays overwatch daily. I mean so do I but it doesn't seem like a Lock game.
Pediatrician Disrespect
2026-02-16 12:18:51 +0000 UTCSeptember 11
Brent Schafer
2026-02-11 20:16:04 +0000 UTCRamon graduated from 311 & Limp Bizkit
Glen Yelenovic
2026-02-11 14:07:52 +0000 UTCSaint Slayer is either coming out April 20th or June 9th
Glen Yelenovic
2026-02-11 13:29:21 +0000 UTCWhy didn't Colin call out Lock for being negative about Horizon like he calls us out every week? Thank god for Lock, breath of fresh air hearing him take down that incredible generic, bland looking game
Bailey Callis
2026-02-11 03:13:35 +0000 UTCCould be 3/11 too
Joey B
2026-02-10 22:42:50 +0000 UTCIt feels like so many episodes boil down to ‘how long can we beat around the ‘sex sells’ bush. I mean Sonys out multiple games and hundreds of millions of dollars trying to solve the problem Chinese and Korean gacha studios solved in 2020 lol BAD gachas make millions a month because people still want the characters
Ryan
2026-02-10 21:56:13 +0000 UTCI love ARC Riders, that said, I think it 100% benefited from COD underperforming. If I'm not mistaken Destiny 1 benefited from the same thing that year(2014?)
ROME.
2026-02-10 18:37:38 +0000 UTCSounds like Lock might like old school runescape actually. While the endgame has some very satisfying content, it will take a long time to get there and it is really about the journey. Tons of content for all parts of the game.
Eric the Human
2026-02-10 16:11:11 +0000 UTCBrad hit the nail in the head with our current live service predicament. The art direction is very important, we already have a fortnite and a genshin impact. Make a new artstyle, don't throw boobs in there either like last descendants and call it a day take some artistic risk. In my opinion its the reason why Marathon is resonating even with gen pop, and as for me I don't really care for extraction shooters but I'm gonna try it, im excited.
Frank G.
2026-02-10 12:18:03 +0000 UTCYour comparison is not terrible but the auto companies were pivoting to EVs because of government incentives/mandates that have since expired or been rolled back.
Sixth Gen Console Enjoyer
2026-02-10 10:32:40 +0000 UTCAs many have voiced here, I'm a little perplexed by Colin and Sammy Barker's takes towards fan pushback against Sony's live service initiative. Sammy complains about Playstation fans holding the company hostage but as consumers aren't we supposed to be the ones driving the bus in a way? Certainly this shouldn't be in a vile or mean-spirited way but strip away the mystique around the creative process for a second: this IS a business that runs off of paying consumers who were courted due to particular styles of exclusives that have been largely neglected this generation. When faced with something as outwardly insincere, trend-chasey, and downright clumsy as Playstation's current manner of pursuing live service success, why shouldn't we make our voices heard? A company like Ford decides to pivot to an all EV lineup eliciting consumer rebellion? That pushback is championed. But because it's game developers, pushback suddenly gets framed as entitlement? The core of that viewpoint doesn't make sense to me.
Clanker Rosa Sparks, Sit in the Back of the Bus
2026-02-10 04:22:06 +0000 UTCVery Nice!
Borat Sagdiyev
2026-02-09 19:03:06 +0000 UTCL4D came out almost 20 years ago. Not saying that you are, but I think people are looking back on games with the bias of their nostalgia. Likely most people playing L4D were in their teens and/or had never played a game like that with that quality level. That's just a recipe for any future game not giving you the same feeling. I agree that 4 Loop needs something to make it more interesting though.
JP
2026-02-09 18:08:38 +0000 UTCI think he is just frustrated (rightly so ) with the current social landscape on the internet and is not thinking things through as a result. I think. Thats me giving him the benefit of the doubt too, cuz ive also been a Colin listener since IGN days and this is the first time I find myself completely dumbfounded by his take
Pianopower
2026-02-09 17:48:02 +0000 UTCIn the 10+ years I’ve listened to Colin I think this is the first time where I not just disagree with him on a whole arm of Sony, but actually find all his arguments quite weak?
Ryan
2026-02-09 17:07:53 +0000 UTCSomeone check the temperature in hell, I agree with PairOfShuse lol. The splitting of hairs in saying that Hunters Gathering looks different from Fortnite and then not being charitable to anime art styles just comes off as kinda undeservedly dismissive.
RIP Marcus
2026-02-09 14:45:00 +0000 UTCIt does not look like Fortnite, watch the trailer again, its like the Sony Pictures animations movies, not Fortnite. I guess nuance to animation/art style is not something regular gamers can see, not worth trying to create something unique like Horizon. It has to be blatantly different.
Dan
2026-02-09 06:45:47 +0000 UTCThank god for Brad and Locke being in this episode. There were so many things Colin said that contradicted himself and I am honestly baffled how he just doesn’t get it. 1. Saying all anime looks the same but says there needs to be a better way to discuss “cartoony” style. Really? Saying it looks like Fortnite is not right but saying all anime looks the same is alright when it clearly doesn’t if you are someone who keeps up with anime. 2. Saying the art of DnD looks awful and berating it (rightfully so) and then not being able to see that this is what has been happening with gaming in multiple ways aesthetic and writing wise. These were my two biggest complaints just because they are massive contraindications, biases, or I don’t even know. Colin gets a lot right and I agree with him on a lot of things, but I do feel like he had interactions with Grummz and SmashJT, that he’s let their stupidity cloud judgment on this topic. Those two don’t speak for everyone. Just gets old when something that is clearly happening starts getting downplayed and then another thing gets criticized go the same thing that the other thing is getting a pass for, for some reason. So big thumbs up to Brad and Locke for this ep. I hope Colin takes these views into consideration going forward because their views are held by, IMO, a larger portion of audiences.
PairOfShuse
2026-02-09 04:26:15 +0000 UTCBut….it definitely looks like Fortnite. There’s plenty of ‘cartoony’ games that don’t get called Fortnite. Hi-fi rush is a unique and cartoony game that didn’t receive that treatment. Look at the map design, the battle royals mechanics and the loot focus of the game combined withe the cartoony style. It’s clearly going for Fortnite
Moistescarjoe
2026-02-09 01:45:31 +0000 UTCI’ve seen your comments on quite a few other last stand posts. Not one time have I seen something remotely resembling a rational, coherent statement. I need you to know your inane, predictable babbling taints these posts in a similar way that mold taints a loaf of bread. Of course, your AI slop profile picture should have clued me in earlier. You contribute nothing of worth in these comments.
Michael Hebert
2026-02-08 22:48:18 +0000 UTCYou need a better example. Roblox is awful, it’s riddled with groomers and it looks hideous. Any sane adult who’s spent any time around it understands that.
DMC
2026-02-08 19:51:36 +0000 UTCI think that's what Sony isn't getting, their audience has been trained to expect gritty and grounded. Hunters Gather looks like it's made for 13 year-olds. Nothing wrong with that but it's not what the core PS audience wants
BigDumbStupidIdiot
2026-02-08 18:15:07 +0000 UTCHe is frustrated by the way people choose to communicate online ( relatable) so he is over correcting in the opposite direction.....which is just as annoying as the other guys.
Pianopower
2026-02-08 17:18:37 +0000 UTCRight? Like, I wish it was truly "experiemental like in ps3 days", but it isnt. Not even a little bit
Pianopower
2026-02-08 17:16:45 +0000 UTCConstantly chasing multi-million sellers is why Sony is down to like 3 or 4 franchises they care about. What's wrong with Nintendo approach? They drop multiple millionish sellers a year that are all profitable. It's like Moneyball, they can't have a bunch of Zeldas but they can recreate Zelda's success in the aggregate
BigDumbStupidIdiot
2026-02-08 16:23:11 +0000 UTCWhat even is the point of Hunters Gathering when you can’t even see the details of the robots? Which was a selling point for the franchise, making out and figuring out the weak spot in their design.
Pianopower
2026-02-08 14:05:40 +0000 UTCLet me make it easy for you Colin. A game like Hunters Gathering, elicit in me the same reaction when I see Roblox. Same eye rolling
Pianopower
2026-02-08 14:04:12 +0000 UTCColin you talk about how people just blindly shit on games without playing them, then you do the same thing to Roblox. Come on man.
MethHaven
2026-02-08 13:33:01 +0000 UTCRemember when Sony released both Horizons within a week of BotW and Elden Ring and it became a literal meme. If you can’t understand where the hate comes from, maybe play BotW or Elden Ring. They do more than make another ass creed game.
Garlic Aioli
2026-02-08 12:13:48 +0000 UTCThing is, I actually fucking love the idea of Sony doing MP again. But give us Socom, Killzone, Resistance or Last of Us. Make it gritty, grounded and cinematic, transfer the ethos used for first party games instead of chasing trends.
Your Boi Nicky V
2026-02-08 10:09:37 +0000 UTCMy take on why these games are getting bad reception is because it's obvious that the executives are pushing for these games to be made rather than the devs having a passion for these games and putting out something that looks interesting and fresh.
Paul Knickerbocker
2026-02-08 02:10:48 +0000 UTCBrad and Lock got me through this one. It's one of the very rare times I was immensely frustrated by some of what Colin was dropping.
Adam Razak
2026-02-08 02:04:27 +0000 UTC4 Loop or however it’s spelled is a great example of another live service game with characters that don’t resonate with players. I can’t put my finger on it, but compare it to L4D. The sauce is missing
Michael McCoy
2026-02-08 00:54:41 +0000 UTCWhy does the console/PC game look like a mobile slop game, but the mobile game actually looks more like a console game, and closer to the actual art style of the core Horizon games?
John
2026-02-08 00:48:21 +0000 UTCI think it’s definitely 4/20, that would make the most sense with Colin saying he didn’t pick the date (due to his love of weed)
Michael McCoy
2026-02-08 00:33:17 +0000 UTCI loved this episode, good stuff! As an FF14 player since the beginning, I love what Brad said about it being a Final Fantasy-Ass Final Fantasy. Riding around on magitek armor with a modern arrangement of the FF6 opening theme playing in the background will never get old.
MDoftheNorth
2026-02-08 00:23:58 +0000 UTCJudging by the reaction, and Colin saying it wasn’t his idea, Saint slayer release date could be 06/06/26 😂
Vermonol
2026-02-08 00:05:57 +0000 UTC“Heal your legs” lmfao
Andy Carroll
2026-02-07 23:53:35 +0000 UTCThankyou Brad and Lock for educating Colin on what makes a game appealing. Colin be seeing Horizon hunters gathering through horizon tinted lenses. Big L’s for Colin on this one, he must have forgot to smoke weed this week because he seems off base.
Smegaladon
2026-02-07 23:51:58 +0000 UTC1:31:19 shrieks of the damned
RIP Marcus
2026-02-07 23:33:00 +0000 UTCI am holding out hope that Last of Us Factions isn't completely dead. I'm wishing it's salvaged as a traditional multiplayer mode as part of Last of Us Part 3. All of that work done, might as well put it out there in some form. I understand why Sony made such a live service push, it made perfect sense to do so. The problem was the execution; they didn't know what they were doing and fucked it up. Now we have a console generation with so few quality Sony single player games that nobody cares if the PS6 is delayed until 2030.. Personally, I don't really care about exclusives. I've played a ton of great games on PS5, it doesn't matter if they're Sony or third-party. It would have been nice if Sony had been much more selective in it's live service initiative so they could have kept more resources for single player games. But we are where we are.
Matthew Cooper
2026-02-07 22:57:11 +0000 UTCHorizon: Zero Players Online
Big Booty Latinas Can Stay
2026-02-07 22:38:40 +0000 UTCIt’s not hypocrisy. The reason a lot of us are calling it out, because those of us who was hoping for a decima engine horizon coop experience are being told, “you guys just complain about everything”
Slippery when wet
2026-02-07 22:31:58 +0000 UTCI see a lot of the sentiment about how Colin wouldn’t play this if it weren’t Horizon, and that doesn’t feel entirely fair. I’d say that about many things. Of course I may give something a chance that I otherwise wouldn’t, because of its association to a brand I enjoy, or from a developer that I like. I hate mech games, but of course I’m there day one for Armored Core because it’s From, for example. You guys aren’t finding hypocrisy in the way you think you are. It’s really not an especially unreasonable thing to do.
Dante B
2026-02-07 22:25:42 +0000 UTCThe art style gives Fortnite x League of Legends vibes
Evan Westendorf
2026-02-07 21:39:34 +0000 UTCColin too old to be shilling over a game. Take away “horizon” and you know damn well you wouldn’t be playing “hunters gathering”. It’s ok for people to be tired of these cartoony live service pushes.
Slippery when wet
2026-02-07 20:52:10 +0000 UTCCalling people who didn’t like the Horizon reveal tourists is incredibly disingenuous.
TriggerHappyTom
2026-02-07 20:44:11 +0000 UTCColin, would you play Hunters Gathering if the Horizon name wasn't attached to it? I think you probably wouldn't. Does that make you a fan boy? I think it does.
Dustin's Avatar Fetish
2026-02-07 19:24:41 +0000 UTCIt’s crazy to me anyone could be confused by Fortnite comparison. It isn’t lazy shorthand for cartoony. Fortnite is a very specific aesthetic that a lot of games copy, including this one. There are countless cartoonish games that don’t draw this comparison.
Dante B
2026-02-07 18:43:58 +0000 UTCLovish is great
Conor Wilson
2026-02-07 18:35:44 +0000 UTC4/20 release date confirmed
Drew B
2026-02-07 17:56:53 +0000 UTCI hate live service games with a fiery passion.
Dustin's Avatar Fetish
2026-02-07 17:37:33 +0000 UTCReleased date 4/20 for saint slayer after the …hehehe “I didn’t pick that date”
kyle.corrado89
2026-02-07 17:31:48 +0000 UTCinb4 the novels
RIP Marcus
2026-02-07 17:06:53 +0000 UTC
