The future of TGAB
Added 2023-10-25 01:13:44 +0000 UTCIrrespective of my ongoing mental health issues and the impact they keep having on my publication schedule, there's a specific matter continuing the future of The Gods are Bastards that I would like to bring up with the community before it comes to a head. I'm very interested in hearing what people think about this.
TGAB has been doing very well on Royal Road, and one of the consequences of that is that I've begun to be approached by publishers who scout there. So far, I have politely demurred, citing my current commitments in helping prepare OVDT for publication, continuing to actively publish new TGAB content, and generally being a crazy person who doesn't function well under stress (I didn't mention that one to the acquisitions agents - you're all aware of it, though). All have been very polite and understanding about this, so I don't think I've burned any bridges.
It was my intention from the very beginning, and I've said as much in writing multiple times and in multiple places, that The Gods are Bastards was to be kept permanently online, for free, in the tradition of the open internet. Yes, I'm aware that this is a very Web 1.0 attitude, but - not to sound all boomer or anything - I still think there's value in that ideal. This is why I am conflicted, and interested in hearing perspectives from the community, about the fact that I am reconsidering this stance. If I agree to a publishing contract, the free versions will almost certainly have to be taken down. And even so, I'm thinking about it.
Any discussion of this should begin with the acknowledgment up front that going with a publisher would be much more profitable for me. That is not my main motivation, but I don't want to pretend it isn't a factor.
What really makes me take this prospect seriously is that I think TGAB has reached as many people as it can in its current form. Cross-posting it to Royal Road has brought it before a new audience, but according to my Wordpress site stats, views on tiraas.net had been basically static for the last half of the serial's existence before it went on hiatus, and they're about the same now.
As much as I still love the admittedly somewhat romantic ideal of keeping it online for free, it remains a fact that the webserial market is a minuscule slice of the overall fiction market. If TGAB is put out by an actual publisher with a marketing budget, it will be seen by a lot more people than currently know it exists. And romantic ideals aside, even more than financial remuneration, that prospect appeals powerfully to me as a creator. I'd love for my work to be more widely known; I wish for it to find as much of an audience out there as it's able to.
So I'm considering it.
I suspect that the idea isn't too off-putting to much of the existing readership; over the years, most of you who have read TGAB have done so multiple times, and I've heard many readers wish there could be physical editions, audio versions, and even just ebooks. I should clarify that while my contract with Podium for OVDT covers all of those, we are talking about a hypothetical future contract with an as-yet undetermined publisher, so I can't promise all three of those specific versions, or really anything in particular. But they would be definite possibilities, and I know there are at least some TGAB fans who would rather have those than have the story stay free.
Even so, this would go against my initial plans, and more importantly it would contradict my well-established statements. That's not something I take lightly at all. Hence the time and serious consideration I'm giving this, and my interest in letting the community chime in before I reach any final decision.
I'm making this post a poll, so anyone who's interested in registering a preference easily can. For the same reason, I encourage anyone who wishes to add their comments to do so; I will read everything posted here. I'm setting this post to public to make sure everyone who might be interested will be able to weigh in.
To be clear, this poll is not voting on the outcome: it's to help me gain a view of how the community feels. I will ultimately make the decision I believe is best, but knowing the opinions of established readers, while it won't be the sole deciding factor, is something that will help me find the right conclusion.
So, if you would:
Comments
Libraries provide stories to the public for free. If you can swing a deal where the publisher charges only what any individual would pay for a book, or even less, then you are still getting your stories out there for free. Right now, libraries pay exorbitant amounts for digital stories, and have to keep paying, which seriously limits the amount of stories available to the public.I truly support your view that stories deserve to be available to everyone, even those who cannot or do not wish to purchase them. However, money is how we survive in this current world. You work hard and provide a great value to the world, and deserve to be rewarded for that. So, if publishing brings you that financial reward, then go for it.
Ta Mi
2023-12-25 19:31:45 +0000 UTCMaybe there's an option where the first N books get kept online, as a way to continue bringing people to the series. But definitely agree with others that you & your works deserve to be published and you should take the best deal available to you to make it so - keep in mind that things like libraries exist that will mean people can still get your work for free if it gets published. :)
Lord Haart
2023-11-17 21:02:29 +0000 UTCAs other people have said, I am very much in favor of authors getting paid. But I can also provide a way to think about this where it is completely in your readers' interest for you to get traditionally published: I think you're an amazing author, and I want to read more of your work. That means I want you to be in conditions that are as conducive to writing as possible, which means *financial stability*. As they say, money can't buy happiness but it can buy a whole lot of security. So I would *love* for you to get your work traditionally published, get more money, and get yourself in a better place financially. I'm excited to picture the things you could create if you were healthy and secure and free of the grinding stress that financial instability can cause! Taking care of yourself is also taking care of the readers! Even if it means you need to take pauses or pull down your story to get published!
BagFullOfLizards
2023-10-29 21:25:56 +0000 UTCWebb, if you have a shot and it isn't exploitative? TAKE IT. This seems like it would be a fairly rare opportunity, but I'm not an author. Also, selfishly, it would be pretty damn cool to see an author I've followed since TopWebFiction go big. I might squee a little.
AllenR
2023-10-27 19:31:46 +0000 UTCSame. I am leaving because of the planned publishing of OVDT.
Anders Birch
2023-10-26 16:52:13 +0000 UTCHaving done a re-read with the release on RR, I honestly do think there is a difference between the older and the newer sections, which is normal as you have grown as an author. But it does mean that I think that the story would benefit from a professional editor working with you. There are a number of people I know who dismiss the web serial format to whom I could recommend a published work. So I would say If you can get a publishing deal, that does not drop all the editing and reviewing work on you and does not make your mental health space worse, You should consider it, as long as it is a deal that will actually be good for you long term.
Jeremy Norton
2023-10-26 09:47:51 +0000 UTCI think the poll rather speaks for itself. You shouldn't feel like selling out because you want to make a living. I appreciate that you've always offered to make TGAB available online, but honestly if you'd polled people earlier on how much they actually cared about that promise you'd probably have seen the same result you're seeing now. We buy books from other authors, why expect yours to be free?
Taborask
2023-10-26 05:06:13 +0000 UTCThat's pretty much my stance, too. Shortchanging the people who have been along with the story for all these years seems less than kosher, but there has to be a middle ground between that and forgoing the vast majority of potential revenue from an epic story like this.
Too Much Sanity May Be Madness
2023-10-25 20:21:33 +0000 UTCYup, get that bag. Let us know a bit in advance of taking it down, is all I ask; I have a personal copy of APGtE that I've reformatted for my own purposes, and wouldn't mind doing the same for a personal copy of TGaB.
Tab
2023-10-25 20:04:15 +0000 UTCAs we're living in an era closer to cyberpunk than Star Trek, do protect your financial stability and find a publisher (preferably one who doesn't screw you over). Money can't buy happiness but boy, does it ward off misery.
Sorden
2023-10-25 19:06:50 +0000 UTCGet paid for your work. Get professional editing and publishing assistance. Make more and better content. Your work has value and you should feel good about monetizing that work. In short, hell yes do it. You've already put it online for free for years now. While keeping it online and free is totally a worthwhile aspiration (and may be a good idea economically, check out Baen's free library program), getting yourself some extra financial security is paramount. (And re: the suggestion of doing Kickstarter/going independent etc, that is a TON of work just to find the necessary partnerships and keep things on track. Much better to have a professional company taking that workload for you, I suspect)
JeffR
2023-10-25 18:56:52 +0000 UTCLeaving a comment rather than a vote for more nuance, my thoughts here on priorities are: - Above everything else, in this hellscape we exist in, you should prioritize your own ability to live/health. I know you've had difficulty financially before getting treatment for health problems, and if you're in a position where that could still easily be an issue, getting at least some safety net is the priority. Whatever it is that means. - After the above point, I'm in the pro-Web 1.0 mindset. Separately, making something unavailable after having explicitly promised it would stay available leaves a bad taste in my mouth. - If the first point isn't a pressing issue, I think it's worth holding out for - or even reaching out yourself to - publishers that will respect your preferences. Both re: terms that can keep your stress low/mental health up, and in terms of standing by your principles. (REGARDLESS of whether that's a publisher you can realistically find, definitely make sure to have an independent lawyer review any contract with you.) - If you can find a traditional publisher that respects your preferences, I think that for you especially that might be the way to go over trying to self-publish physical books/audiobooks. I remember a Kickstarter that was very stressful for you some years back, so it'd be nice to offload some of that. As far as whether I'd buy books - ebooks definitely if they were DRM free, probably not if they were not. Physical books maybe.
Svirdilu
2023-10-25 13:15:32 +0000 UTC+1 to what people say above about authors deserving to eat and the story deserving more recognition, which is why I voted for pro publishing, with one caveat: I beg to avoid publication on pay-per-chapter mode like YonderStory. I'm not willing to pay for "books as a service" where I don't own the content once I have paid. Let me buy a book, whether paper or ebook^^
Petricorde
2023-10-25 10:09:00 +0000 UTCYeah, my guiding principle in this choice is "Authors deserve to eat."
Philip Barkow
2023-10-25 09:21:15 +0000 UTCI would love to see TGAB professionally published. Its a story that should be made available to a wider audience, and I would really like to see you benefit more from your hard work. I hold the opinion that most people who can be reached in the current format have had the chance to read it as is. If you can continue to keep it online for free that would be ideal, but it shouldn't be the hill to die on.
Silvan Fricker
2023-10-25 09:04:08 +0000 UTCAt the end of the day, Webb, you've provided us with many many hours of entertainment and deserve to be paid for your work. While having an offline version available to your supporters before the free edition goes down might be a nice compromise, ideals don't pay your bills and I regret my previous stance of opposition when you last asked for opinions on a previous publishing offer.
Gemyma
2023-10-25 08:42:07 +0000 UTCThis is what I was hoping to suggest - free digital copies before the takedown date available for those who've supported you thus far.
Gemyma
2023-10-25 08:39:37 +0000 UTCI'd definitely stop my meager Patreon contribution if TGAB is no longer freely available. Also do consider that publishing traditionally potentially come with less leeway around mental health and deadlines. If you're barely scraping by as it is then I don't really blame you for going the more money route though, even if that isn't the prime motivator.
Marc Juul
2023-10-25 07:59:50 +0000 UTCPersonally I don't care either way – do what you think will cause you the least stress. If you do decide to publish, I won't be buying the physical books for one simple reason: I ran out of space for books years ago.
ender
2023-10-25 07:55:11 +0000 UTCI believe you have earned, and are deserving of, having your talent and hard work pay off financially. Obviously free is wonderful, but I think you owe it to yourself to take this opportunity.
Aaron
2023-10-25 07:45:49 +0000 UTCClearly a lot depends on the publisher in question and what they offer, but... Another thing I would like you to consider: this decision affects your ideals as an author, free access vs expanded audience. Go with whichever you, personally are more comfortable with please
Aaradur
2023-10-25 07:29:37 +0000 UTCYup, there’s only so many opportunities for success. I view it like a professional athlete’s career. Get what you can now. You never know when injury or illness will strike you down. Getting published does go against idealism but no one is harmed by this. More success allows them to write more as well.
Mark Robert Mitchell
2023-10-25 06:48:58 +0000 UTCOne suggestion would be to get permission from the publisher to share the ebook with anyone who contributed on patreon for a set number of months before the book is published. Also echoing matthew hubbard, not all publishers are created equal. Please don’t accept a contract from an app like yonder
giom
2023-10-25 05:26:42 +0000 UTCIf you can get a better contract if you go exclusive, then go for it. Otherwise... not all publishers demand that the free version gets taken down. You might always have the option to share an e-book of TGAB on Patreon?
Daemion
2023-10-25 03:26:50 +0000 UTCA professionally published job is so cool, such potential too.
Stephen
2023-10-25 03:11:17 +0000 UTCPart of me wants to hold on to whatever scraps of web 1.0 mentality as I can. The other part wants you to actually get paid, because we live in a capitalist hellscape.
Monty
2023-10-25 03:03:06 +0000 UTCI would rather you maintained your mental health in anyway you can rather than keeping tgab online free and you poorer for it.
Michael Kearney
2023-10-25 03:00:50 +0000 UTCGet published but please get a lawyer to look at any contract you might sign. I know other web serial authors have turned down offers on the basis that they simply aren't good deals. Some have ended up on the yonder app, which is a shitty app but I suppose they felt that was the only place offering decent pay and lack of restrictions. You might already be aware of these things but I think it's worth mentioning.
Matthew Hubbard
2023-10-25 02:18:13 +0000 UTCI'm curious as to whether they'd actually publish the whole thing without forcing you to cut large portions of the story. Even if it were split into a series of books, it's enormous by the standards of the traditional publishing industry. Authors being able to create longer stories like this without being subjected to the demands of publishers whose primary concern is what is most profitable is one of the things I like about web serials.
Grammar Antifa
2023-10-25 02:08:14 +0000 UTCMy hope is that there’s some way to publish it with a company like Tor Books or something that allows you to keep a copy free online. I know Charles Stross has Accelerando online on his website and also has it available as an ebook. He’s obviously a more well-known name which I’m sure gives him leverage in discussions with publishers, but at least it’s an example of this being done.
Star i
2023-10-25 02:08:03 +0000 UTCI don't know if any publisher contracts would actually be conducive to it, but I think it would be best if TGAB could maintain its free web version even if it gets published. Speaking personally, I'd definitely be willing to pay for a professionally edited physical copy of TGAB, but *also* speaking personally, most of the community I share fiction with will flat out refuse to check anything with a pay gate at the front no matter how highly I praise it, and the fact of the matter is that web publishing hardly ever makes it into the public library system, so if professional publishing entails removing the original version from the web, I think that would end up a case of exchanging one reader base for another, with a small percentage of faithful coming along for the switch.
LostDeviljho
2023-10-25 02:05:41 +0000 UTCI hope that it will at least briefly be free online in its entirety at some time. But I would also like to get physical copies. And my preference for the latter is stronger than the former if they are incompatible. And I'd really love to see a world/setting book at some time in the nebulous future so I can run TTRPGs in this world, regardless of whether it is just lore or you get a connection with a game publisher to incorporate mechanics. If publishing makes this more likely then I absolutely support it.
a passing Fnord
2023-10-25 01:55:04 +0000 UTCHaving given your readers the opportunity to live in Tiraas for years, essentially for free; I think you deserve the opportunities that publishing could provide for you.
WK
2023-10-25 01:49:56 +0000 UTCIf professionally publishing all 17 books of TGAB lets you have finances sufficient to give you some respite from other pressures in your life, I'm all for it. Money can't solve everything, but it can solve a lot, and you should have that buffer from the stresses of the world.
MrHrulgin
2023-10-25 01:44:24 +0000 UTCpersonally, I am in favor of running a Kickstarter or similar to fund hiring a professional independent editor, artist layout person etc as needed, and the idea of you self-pubbing the e-book and print book versions. which would allow you to keep the online version for free. For me, it's not because of the idea of the online version for free, is because everything I have seen from everybody that has done both the serial and the ebook finds that there is very little overlap in audience. You will have the people continuing to read it for free and the certain percentage of them that will support your patreon, and you will have the people who buy the e-book, and there will be very little overlap between those audiences. therefore, even with the idea of the extra level of editing and the possible marketing push you would get from a more traditional publisher, I personally feel like long-term keeping it free and self-pubbing it would have a better return on investment for your time. I could be wrong.
alexander hollins
2023-10-25 01:37:27 +0000 UTCPut my vote in for professionally published - though I'll state that it's less that I actively want TGAB to go that route, as that I'm fine with it. (And also fine if it doesn't, of course.) Do what makes sense to you.
Scrygnimir
2023-10-25 01:36:33 +0000 UTCI'd strongly support publishing, not only because you deserve compensation for such a wonderful story but also because it would make it easier for me to share with others. As much as I try to get people to read this web serial, some people are so unfamiliar with the format that they don't try this. If it were published, I'm sure it would find something closer to the audience it richly deserves.
Mitchell N
2023-10-25 01:35:46 +0000 UTCWebb's mentioned in the Discord that he's not gonna hold any conclusion hostage behind a paywall, and considering his approach to trying to keep the story free, I'd imagine there'll be enough time for a complete readthrough after the conclusion is published before said conclusion gets taken down.
Hate Fish
2023-10-25 01:33:42 +0000 UTCIf it's professionally published, will you finish posting it online before taking it down shortly after completion? I would love for TGAB to get published; it's excellent and you deserve the recognition and rewards, but it's not clear what would happen to the existing setup.
David Pizzuto
2023-10-25 01:29:19 +0000 UTCThis is such a difficult question. Like you, I strongly feel that there is value in having works that are offered for free. And I try to back that up by supporting (often via Patreon) writers who offer their work for free. BUT, I think the deciding factor is what you mentioned: that it can reach a broader audience through a traditional publisher. I wonder whether you can negotiate a return to free over the internet after some embargo period (a couple of years, or after sales drop below some level). After that, sales fall near zero and can only be helped by the publicity.
Michael Chermside
2023-10-25 01:26:25 +0000 UTCI know some other web serial authors do things like sending out the pre-edit ebooks to their patreon subscribers as a bonus, announcing it, then pulling them down when they have to come down - would it be worth doing that, in order to keep with the spirit of keeping the story available online forever whilst sticking with the letter of the contract?
Hate Fish
2023-10-25 01:23:28 +0000 UTCI'd love to be able to give copies of TGAB out as gifts.
Brock
2023-10-25 01:23:02 +0000 UTCI voted for professional publication, but with the caveat that the conclusion will absolutely not be gated behind a purchase, and will be up for a reasonable amount of time for people to read. I believe this mirrors your own position, but I just wanted to be sure.
Mads Frey Halling
2023-10-25 01:22:47 +0000 UTCIs there an option for "I'd like TGAB to remain free but I recognize the current economic climate"? You've talked about money troubles in the past. In an ideal world all art would be free. In the current world, artists have to eat. I don't think asking people to pay $5-10 per volume (I'm assuming each would be sold separately) is outrageous. It contradicts your previous stance, which is unfortunate. But IDK, I vastly prefer you "selling out" and continuing to write over holding true to your ideals and burning out and returning to retail. Edit: Will Wight makes all of his books free every time he releases a new one. But he self publishes I think, so I don't know if you can get permission to do that.
cafenacet
2023-10-25 01:20:23 +0000 UTCI do love the romantic idea of a free story on the internet, very Veskian, but I also do feel like you and TGAB deserve the wider recognition, reach and, yes, the money.
Guillaume Rousseau
2023-10-25 01:18:37 +0000 UTC
