BATTLESTAR GALACTICA | Maelstrom | Season 3 Ep 17 | Get Frakked

It is indeed fucked up when media tries to "redeem" abusive figures, by being like, "they secretly loved you and were trying to help you all along, forgive and say thank you!". They can fuck off with that bullshit. But, I never really took this episode as the show advocating for that necessarily, since I feel it makes clear this is some more of that supernatural-fate-scripture-magic stuff giving her this vision, and it's just giving her what she needs to accept death, for whatever fate-y purpose. She's just being given an artifical vision what she wanted, even Leoben says he's not real.

JXTN

Yeah, this one was rough. Suicide and abuse and childhood trauma are terrible, awful things. You are absolutely right to feel the way you do about them. Everyone deals with these situations differently. Some people are very selfish, and if there's any character in this show who has been consistently portrayed as unabashedly selfish, week in and week out, it's Starbuck.

David Blau

There were several cheaper ships that were made for distance shots, and the one ship borrowed for the close-up. Olmos himself said the ship was valuable at Planet Comicon 2012. I haven't heard about the propmaster's take, do you have a pointer? (SPOILERS, DO NOT CLICK) https://www.looper.com/209773/the-most-expensive-things-accidentally-destroyed-while-filming-movies/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CRAbUNNofs#t=1104

David Blau

From when Major Force killed Kyle Rayner's GF and stuffed her in a fridge. (Green Lantern story from the 90's)

Troy Convers

It's strange, but I saw it as a metaphor for letting go of past trauma and being at peace with oneself. And I never thought of it as suicide, she genuinely thought there was something there and for a moment Lee saw it too. This is what happens when a mind snaps. I've never thought of that as a selfish act, I just feel pity and compassion for anyone who feels like there is no other way to turn. It leaves a sadness that never really ends.

Karl Ward

Woof, that was certainly a mood. I think your points about suicide and the implication Starbuck's abusive mother was doing something positive for her are totally valid. They're leaning hard into the "abuse bad, but it made me what I am today!" trope here which hits very outdated. I'd hope if the show was made today they might have handled it a bit differently. Having said that, I think the show's neglecting the mental health angle in this episode because it's focusing so hard on the mystical stuff. The special destiny, guardian angel, oracles, space between life and death that Deanna and now Starbuck have been inducted into. There's also the whole "cycles" thing, cycle of abuse, all of this has happened before etc. etc. It does feel like Starbuck's character is being a bit manhandled in service of the 'higher' themes. One subtle thing I noticed this watching - there's no way Kara's mother didn't want her to see that letter. She left it face up on the table. She didn't try to snatch it back. Whether that's tragic or manipulative depends on perspective I guess. Biggest miss for me this episode was using Leoben. I get that he's someone "close" to Kara who has the whole mysticism going on, but the shit he put her through was so messed up making her interact with even a representation of him seems unnecessarily cruel.

Jonathan

I believe "Stuffed in a fridge" or just "fridging" is the trope the Pals are trying to think of (traumatizing or killing one character to provide motivation for another.)

Ken Quick

I totally understand your frustration and anger, especially from your own experiences and viewpoints. I've had more than one relative commit suicide, and it's devastating no matter what viewpoint you try to approach it from. Regarding this episode, I myself didn't see it as validating or justifying Kara's abusers, and certainly not a justification for her to commit suicide. At this point we just don't know why she chose that path. I advise patience. Please continue watching---it isn't a spoiler to say that some of the best episodes of the series are coming. You might find answers.

David T

Firefly, in response to your reply, I'm definitely not a hate watcher; the casting and acting are chefs kiss and the next three episodes are the perfect example of that. But let's not pretend the S3/S4 writing isn't patchy; it's been a subject for the last 20 years! I'm basically seeing if my mini reviews that I compiled for the BSG forums at the time still hold true on rewatch (haven't seen it since 2010), and well...🤷‍♂️

Troy Convers

Well... we tried to warn ya about this show lol

Brendon Waldron

It's so refreshing seeing reactors who have the story totally figured out. I look forward to all of your predictions being proven. I know this is a genuine reaction, but I watched the same story you did and never got the impression it had anything to do with "justifying" the abuse Starbuck suffered. To me it was more about Starbuck letting go of the hurt and anger she held onto because of that abuse. It was about Starbuck, not her mom or Leoben.

John

Oh, and can we talk about how concerned TIGH was when Starbuck blew up? Dude was worried as heck. And Hogan conveyed it with just one eye!

Nolan

I'm glad you're here.

Mike Connaghan

🤡 core! I've been the see ICP like 10 times, hands down the most fun I've had at any concert.

Anthony MacEwan

I wonder if there was a (real) insured ship for beauty shots and just some cheaper props for long shots/actor insurance. Maybe there's some confusion about which one got wrecked.

Nolan

I don't think this episode was EVER about justifying the abuse Kara went through. The show has multiple times said the messenger and the message were not the same, and that the messengers effed it up. What I view the episode as being about is wholly on Kara getting closure. She needed to see there was love from her mom somewhere in her life, even in a microcosm. Whether that scene with her mother actually happened or not, Kara needed to believe it was there. As someone who lost a parent to cancer and missed his death by 10 minutes, it stays with you for LIFE. And my relationship with him was waaay less complicated than Kara's and her mom's. To go back and get a chance to see that, to see the end is one I wrestle with. And it's not about the person dying, but the person that missed it. Personally I never took the episode as saying her abusers were right to do what they did, but that getting closure and moving on, leaving that in the past is a freeing experience. Whatever that means. The episode is Kara confronting her abuse, the choices of her abusers, her choices and her regrets and finally moving beyond the defining role they had in her life. At the end Kara and baby Kara are smiling as they are enveloped in pure white light. I don't think that's "Kara is happily going to death," but "Kara is finally freed from the trauma of her past, she's able to be truly happy and move on." Now as far as Kara's mom, to me she clearly has PTSD from the war. She probably grew up in the military and learned harsh disipline as a way of life. Add on traumatic war experiences and well, mama's got anger issues. Don't make her abuse of Kara right, but at least I can sorta see where it's coming from. And she wants to push her kid towards potential? Too bad she doesn't know how to do that, how to raise a child. All she knows is how to discipline soldiers and fight or flee. And that sucks. She was not a good person and even though the episode says she was proud of her daughter (which may have been not real and something Kara needed to tell herself) it never said she was right or a good person. Also, sometimes you gotta write a character out at the last minute so you gotta write something quick.

Nolan

I'm over 4 minutes into this video, and you guys are still happy and carefree. I don't know what I was worried about.

Mike Connaghan

Saw the Youtube thumbnail, saw the episode we were watching. Yup that reaction seems about appropriate. Not a nice episode, and not one I particularly liked. Agree that it didn't even make much sense as well as being awful.

Chris Devlin

I get that you think the writing is atrocious and the twists are obvious. I actually wonder why you're watching the reaction if you hate it so much. But whatever, that's your own personal self-flogging. But don't ruin the fun for everyone else, and don't post spoilers for the Pals. Their unspoiled reaction is LITERALLY what people watch for. That's how they earn their money. Don't ruin it because you hate-watch a show.

Firefly24601

And I can't wait until you get to the next couple of episodes.

Mysterious Science Fiction Fan

Also, you can look up what a synchrotron is on Wikipedia. :-) It's an entirely real kind of particle accelerator.

Mysterious Science Fiction Fan

Things aren't always what they seem. Just a reminder.

Mysterious Science Fiction Fan

What spoilers? It's been telegraphed so much it's a godsdamn exchange. Only people that haven't been paying attention think it's a spoiler. But sure, she's dead and we'll never see Kara again.

Troy Convers

Ah, the cult of Moore rides again! It's the old forum BS that's happened before, and is happening again.

Troy Convers

The series's propmaster said it wasn't true, that the ship came from a mail-order outfit and cost a couple of hundred dollars. They auctioned both of the models, in fact. Not sure why Moore told that story, although everyone seems to believe it, including Katee Sackhoff, who has told it a couple of times as well.

Troy Convers

The series's propmaster said it wasn't true, that the ship came from a mail-order outfit and cost a couple of hundred dollars. They auctioned both of the models, in fact. Not sure why Moore told that story, although everyone seems to believe it, including Katee Sackhoff, who has told it a couple of times as well.

Troy Convers

It wasn't.

Troy Convers

Have to think that the prop master had an out-of-body experience when that happened. Perfect acting choice though.

Funny That

FWIW I chose hard denial. Didn't help though. Great to get to see and understand more about how Kara ticks, to have moments were friends and real family supported her in a season of strained relations. At least the upcoming episodes show us characters dealing with this, with brilliant performances because the cast also felt much the same as their characters.

Funny That

Couldn't disagree more.

LogicSequence

And indeed the model ship, unbeknownst to Eddie Olmos, was a >$100,000 (≈$160,000 adjusted for inflation) antique rented from a museum for the close up shots. He improvised trashing it, as he felt it is what Adama would do. When it happened everyone on set gasped which threw Eddie a little off guard, but they kept rolling on it. It was only after they cut and Eddie asked why everyone was looking that way that he was told about the model. Luckily, they had insurance.

LogicSequence

Time to chime in with the trope to reserve judgement until the series as a whole is over. You're finally getting pieces of the puzzle, but you don't yet know what the puzzle picture is yet. All those feelings are valid but may change as the picture clears. What seems black and white now, you may look back on as being quite opaque in the future. Or not, who knows. Some people will start nay-saying the series at this point for various reasons, but in my opinion that is because they have missed the message (that you can only know when you have completed the entire series). My advice would be to keep an open mind, and judge for yourself when it's all said and done. "You cannot tell the depth of the river, until you see the bottom." ―Oma Desala

LogicSequence

SPOILERS, like mods remove this post S P O I L E R S.

LogicSequence

Well. THAT was a thing. I get your criticisms, but I definitely have a very different take on it. Probably from identifying with certain things based on life experiences. I'll also say, every time I watch this episode, I glean more subtle things from it (can't really reveal it right now.) re: Paula's comments on "S"... definitely don't agree with that. Some people feel very abandoned and lost, and that they have not enough worth living for in their future. I often feel that I don't. That's a real genuine state to be in. It's not always selfish to give up. I don't blame anyone for doing it, or say "F you". That's really a bit cold and myopic. I would try to support them, or feel that I should have been there more for them. I certainly wouldn't tell someone they have to keep on living for OTHERS benefit and if they don't they're selfish. Everyone needs to feel that there's something for THEM, in their future, worth looking forward to. "How dare you - you should have continued to stay alive despite your pain and hopeless feelings, so I wouldn't feel bad" - sorry but that's even more selfish. People need our support and understanding... we've already had enough blame and guilt for 1 lifetime, from mom's like Kara's...

Locoturbo

worse? he is a wonderful writer

Derek Orr

plenty of nuance and layers actually

Derek Orr

ummm wtf dude spoilers

Derek Orr

This is the episode where Edward James Olmos damaged an old and very expensive antique model ship worth $100,000...unaware that it was expensive and merely on loan to the show.

Kurt Yost

Troy Convers

The model ship that Adama broke was a $100k+ museum piece that had been rented for production

Stephen Wray

I always used to pass this episode over on a DVD rewatch, so I haven't seen this in literal decades. It's just Kara sees a circle, Kara gets abused, Kara suffers, repeat. Depressing, no nuance, and no information other than Kara's the (dead?) Special One (somehow). Skiiiiip.

Rowan Talmage

I'm going to have to watch this a little later this evening. In the meantime, I'm going to not take a breath, forget that this is your in the moment, emotional reaction, and prepare to mercilessly judge you. Mwaaahahaha!

Mike Connaghan

As a person that's lost friends, lovers and relatives to murder, suicide and alcoholism, it still bewilders me to this day that they're gone, and that all could have been avoided.

Troy Convers

Welcome to Ron Moore writing 101. And it only gets worse from this point, although there are some BEAUTIFUL eps and scenes to come, like next the next three episodes, with some dumb shit thrown in for good measure.

Troy Convers

I will watch holistic just as soon as I get back from the Star Trek Cruise!

Carrie Schwent