Liaisons, Gallifrey Gals Get Warped! S7ep2
Added 2023-02-14 18:59:01 +0000 UTCHappy Valentine's Day. Remember folks, consent is sexy. No means no and that's final.
Thank you all for being here with us on these watch throughs and thank you for always being a supportive and wonderful community!
https://vimeo.com/796695453/4341d3e829
PAULA DEMING
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KATRINA ALYSHA
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Comments
I cannot imagine that he did not use the long journey home to educate the ambassador thoroughly about all the things the gals are complaining about. They just didn't put it on screen. Why? Because simply acknowledging what they did as wrong was already hugely progressive at the time! We mustn't hold the people of 30 years ago to the standards of today and say they made a mistake in writing. No, they didn't, they did the best they knew how. We can't expect Trek writers to be 30 years, or 50 years, or 300 years ahead of real society just because... why? Because they're writing science fiction? Ridiculous.
IceDreamer
2023-03-13 21:38:52 +0000 UTC"Excusing it by saying the show is three decades old doesn't cut it." - Yes. It does. The setting may be 300 years in the future, but we cannot and must not condemn the writers of 30 years ago for not having an accurate prediction of culture 300 years from then, or even 30 years from them!. That's just arrogance, nothing more. I would not have predicted 15 years ago that today's culture would be where it is. They got the correct read that the methods the ambassadors used were fundamentally wrong and not the right way. I always took it that the conversations which you want on-screen simply happened off-screen. It seems obvious to me that Picard used the trip home to educate the ambassador and have that conversation, and through that come to understand and forgive, and then BY THE TIME THEY GET BACK he is able to view it as interesting.
IceDreamer
2023-03-13 21:34:27 +0000 UTCAs far as Trek goes, I would encourage you to at least finish the TNG journey if nothing else. You’ve invested 7 seasons, so why not do the four movies and season 3 of Picard? I know Paula isn’t excited about Insurrection or Nemesis, but some major character stuff happens in those. Kat might enjoy them. Then the follow up 20 years later to see what’s happened to everyone…just a thought.
trylikeafool
2023-03-01 03:50:38 +0000 UTCYes like our current society ambassadors have complete diplomatic immunity, which means the ambassador legally can't be prosecuted even if a crime is committed.
Hampus Theander
2023-02-21 20:31:53 +0000 UTCOh that's a shame.
Tom Evans
2023-02-19 06:24:43 +0000 UTCI don't recall her calling DS9 "triggering". She mostly gave the impression she didn't care for the overall darker tone and specifically some of the portrayals of relationships. But yes there will be no DS9 reaction. They have vaguely implied they intend to continue with a new sci-fi series or franchise but haven't been more specific than that. They are getting a lot of recommendations in the comments one of them being SG1, which is the only thing I can think of them doing that I most likely would not be interested in sticking through.
John Welch
2023-02-18 17:26:00 +0000 UTCPaula has said previously that she’s watched DS9 and isn’t comfortable doing a watchalong, as she found much of the content extremely triggering.
Matthew Zeidman
2023-02-18 07:21:00 +0000 UTCI would have thought continuing on with DS9 was a given.
Tom Evans
2023-02-18 03:31:25 +0000 UTCFair enough. I had actually thought of that in a previous comment about recommendations and pointed it out. I just love the show so much I sorta blanked out on the problematic aspects of it. Like when I voted for Space Seed then watched them watch it and was like "oh...yeah, DUH!" It would definitely need to be discussed in advance at least. But ok drop BSG and replace it with The Expanse at only 65 episodes. Heck even Babylon 5 at 110 episodes is less of a time drain than 10 seasons(!) of "ok at best" sci-fi.
John Welch
2023-02-17 23:12:27 +0000 UTCGiven their reaction to this episode, do you really think BSG is a good choice? I love it myself, but knowing what S2 of that show has in store, I would be EXTREMELY hesitant to recommend it to them.
Nolan
2023-02-17 20:50:30 +0000 UTCI have to say I have been slightly concerned about what your next move is going to be after TNG runs it's course. I enjoy your Trek content so much that I can't imagine it being replaced. But if it is, my vote would be rather than another long running series like Stargate, it be replaced with multiple shorter run stuff. Like no more than four, maybe five seasons a series. Last of us would be great. Firefly, Farscape, and BSG have exactly as many episodes combined as TNG did at 178. I like the variety of that vs one loonngggg new franchise like Stargate. SG1 alone has 214 episodes. And to be frank it is mid tier sci-fi. Firefly is remembered as unique storytelling that was never given a real chance. Farscape as visually stunning and creative. BSG as some of the best "serious" sci-fi ever made. Stargate is usually remembered as "that 90s cable show that showed boobs in the first few seasons and was still on after most people had thought it was cancelled."
John Welch
2023-02-17 20:03:38 +0000 UTCI think Picard was referring there to actions of the ambassadors on board Enterprise, not the one who he was "stranded" with.
Raja
2023-02-16 22:56:45 +0000 UTC"sending him off doesn't cut it" I'm not sure how else it could resolved within the context of Star Trek. Picard couldn't arrest or otherwise sanction the ambassador. This was an alien culture that had no first hand interaction with humans, so all he can do is explain that what he did was wrong by his society's norms.
Raja
2023-02-16 22:52:42 +0000 UTCErm... that said, I can't recall off-hand if in that Original Series episode I mentioned if there was any SA type stuff either, but it was the frickin 60's where tropes such as "kiss em till they like it" were normal, so probably? I said it handled the ideas, BETTER, in that it actually addressed the things the concept talked about, but there's a good chance that episode I mentioned had the same type of crap in it. Yikes.
Nolan
2023-02-16 07:57:44 +0000 UTCI second that.
Matthew Zeidman
2023-02-15 11:59:06 +0000 UTCI don’t even think the SA aspect of the episode would have crossed my mind had Kat and Paula not brought it up, which is deeply unsettling and I think highlights how issues regarding consent, bodily autonomy, etc. are fed through a gender-biased lens. We’re taught as a society that, because we live in a patriarchy, men and boys are incapable of being survivors of assault or otherwise having our bodily autonomy violated, because no one benefiting from the privilege of patriarchy could possibly be a victim within said patriarchy. Look at female and male circumcision of infants as a glaring example. The former is a serious federal crime in the United States (even so much as pricking an AFAB child’s genitals would result in prison time), while the latter is completely written off as benign and even encouraged, because AFAB children are seen as in inherent need of protection and AMAB children aren’t. We can and must do better as a society. Not only does it diminish a survivor of SA or any other type of violation to ignore them because of their gender, but it also breeds resentment and extremism (look at how the men’s rights movement weaponizes legitimate grievances as cover for misogyny).
Matthew Zeidman
2023-02-15 11:54:08 +0000 UTCIn the episode Interface the actress who plays Geordi's mom was the first ever female Captain seen onscreen in Star Trek. She played the Captain of the USS Saratoga in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home. Prior to this in the previous 3 movies but especially the final episode of TOS no women had been seen as a Captain or higher rank and in the God awful series finale Turnabout Intruder they stated that women weren't allowed to be Star Feet Captains which not only was the worst episode of TOS but for a show that was supposed to be tolerant and progressive was really a huge step in the wrong direction especially at the time (1969) the women's liberation movement was just starting to make huge inroads throughout the 1970s.
Brad Barter
2023-02-15 06:20:20 +0000 UTCSociety has typically always focused on the safety and well-being of women and their children in an abusive relationship. There was a W/5 investivgative report here in Canada just a few years ago about men being in abusive relationships. Not all men are equal or capable of defending themselves plus if any man should raise his arms towards a women even if true self-defense it can easily be twisted to make him look as the aggressor. Women even verbally can be just as abusive towards their partner whether male or female etc that years of mind games, cold stares, smashed dishes, appliances, vehicles and so on can wear down the other person's self-esteem, self-worth to where it can get so bad that it ends in suicide or murder. Men who do try to seek help from an abusive partner face an uphill battle as our entire western society is based on female counseling, shelter, child care, relocation and other services from the police to the courts on down. Plus most men would rather suffer in silence not fighting back, not seeking help because they feel it will make them less of a man. Society is slowly changing to acknowledge men being assaulted and raped and not just by other men which is the general belief, but the shame, stigma and beliefs are still firmly set in a lot of people's minds. If any man needs help, do not allow personal prejudices, shame or scorn stop you. Talk to someone, reach out until someone listens and get the help you need.
Brad Barter
2023-02-15 05:08:53 +0000 UTCDon't have too much to say about this episode. It has some fun moments, but overall it's a middling episode in a middling season. I agree with the general points of your objections but just don't feel them as strongly. As far as The Last of Us goes, I'd definitely be on board. Mostly for the entirely selfish reason that it's a show that I'm watching so it's something I could watch with you gals. I'm not watching any of the non-Trek shows that you are currently watching and this last season has me a little sad that I may not have anything watch from you after this (depending on what show replaces it).
Robert C
2023-02-15 03:07:02 +0000 UTCI do appreciate a good rant, especially when it's on the nose. Excusing it by saying the show is three decades old doesn't cut it. As you said the series takes place 300 years in the future. Having Picard telling the ambassador what he did would be considered a crime and sending him off doesn't cut it. Although some of the interactions were fun, this was a Mad Libs episode. Another alien species using highly unorthodox and questionable methods to learn about others.
Bruce Bromley
2023-02-15 01:34:30 +0000 UTCCliche tropes - Men stalking women = funny, sexy, every 60s-80s romcom . Women stalking men = scary, dangerous, always ends in somebody or something threatened with death (Fatal Attraction, first kill the bunny, then...).
Mark Ten
2023-02-15 01:25:06 +0000 UTCGreat reaction, again. U two are a product of TODAY. This show is decades old. Naturally, u would find fault in it with the mindset of today. Its completely understandable. Sometimes a TV show is just a TV show and we shouldnt be lookiing for them to reflect our own morals.
Sal Sanchez
2023-02-15 00:46:35 +0000 UTCSure but the Ambassador who knew nothing of love might not have known that. Still in the end, he was just trying to recreate the same scenario as the marooned woman. The only unanswered question is did the two castaways ever escape the planet?
Mark Chrisco
2023-02-15 00:01:52 +0000 UTCMaybe they somehow knew Picard was attracted to women and not men?
Joe Concepts
2023-02-14 22:58:15 +0000 UTCIn regards to The Last Of Us, I would love to see you both watch the show!
Brian Moore
2023-02-14 22:14:59 +0000 UTCDid you take exception the production didn't have the courage to cast a male in role of Anna. Maybe the ambassador never really had to disguise himself as a woman? Perhaps if made today, that's what would have happened.
Mark Chrisco
2023-02-14 21:53:10 +0000 UTCIt's kinda interesting because while the issues you discussed at the end were definitely a conversation that was happening in society and slowly growing in awareness, it really wasn't until 2016 that there was a huge societal shift in being more open to talking about them. I mean, yes, the big "R" word was clearly marked as not okay before than, but our society at large just didn't really have big talks shining a light not just on the most extreme type of sexual misconduct but on the whole spectrum that could lead up to that extreme act. I think before 2016 and those conversations started happening, it would not be unfair to say that our society had somewhat normalized those behaviours, and it wasn't until people stepped out and spoke up about what those things did to them that the perspective on those shifted. Certainly after those movements did I look back and question some of my own behaviours and interactions to see if there were things I did that I wasn't even aware of at the time, and I generally think I'm a decently empathetic person, but what is so fascinating is that empathy requires putting yourself on the different perspective to experience another persons view. But I think that prior to 2016, the majority of society lacked that frame of reference to even understand or even think about thsese things that had been so normalized and downplayed so that empathy wasn't as forthcoming for most people until others stood up and explained "Hey look, shit like this makes us feel like this, and we don't like these types of behaviours and actually LOOK at this type of thing and see how ACTUALLY grotesque it is." I mean, go back and look at Rom-coms from the pre-2000s to see where we were versus where we are now. That's not to say that "those things used to be okay, and people handled it better," no, no, no, just that society's understanding of those things was woefully lacking and it's only relatively recently that a much needed light was shone on these issues and let people's understanding grow. It was kinda a huge perspective shift and it's kinda jarring to look back at media and past views on things and realize that we just didn't have a clue. And of course, with any new understanding there will be growing pains as people acclimatize to it and hit that learning curve if they've been fortunate enough to not have had that perspective literally forced upon them. As for the episode itself, as much as we can disagree with how messed up that alien society is in their approach and behaviours, I think a big clue and reason for why they are like that IN UNIVERSE is that scene with the child where the ambassador has no idea what a child is, because, as he said, his people emerge fully grown from birthing pods or whatever. Therfore,his people do not have Foundational childhood experiences to shape them and teach them acceptable behaviours and why boundaries are important. I mean, they were still shitty assholes, but at least there might be a bit more of a reason for it than just "This is the shitty way we learn about different things." I wonder if viewing these characters as exasperating, annoying children would change how one viewed the episode - you have the sweets obsessed, would buy out a candy store if he could, and doesn't realize how unhealthy that junk food is kid, the immature bully/demanding brat who doesn't understand the hurt he causes others because he can't see past how it makes him feel, and the doe-eyed, fairy-tail romance lover who dreams of a prince to take her away from her castle without realizing how messed up those stories actually are. Eitherway, there's an Original Series episode that is similar to this one and perhaps handles it a little better than this one did, with a bit better of a message about these types of behaviours, called "By Any Other Name." That this episode is already so similar to that one, leads me to believe that conversation about the dress uniforms and diplomats was probably an intentional reference.
Nolan
2023-02-14 21:45:57 +0000 UTCIt's crazy that this episode reaction fell on Valentine's Day! LOL. Great discussion at the end.
DC
2023-02-14 21:12:12 +0000 UTCOne of the best thing about scifi is when they can look at a social issue, human traits etc from an angle that cannot be achieved in regular drama and hopefully creating some new perspective or insight. I think that's what the writers were going for here. And they failed. Picard literally says it's considered a crime in his society and then turns around and says but I like your style... Does not compute. There are plenty episodes where they got it right, but not here.
Pickupthepieces76
2023-02-14 21:11:06 +0000 UTCOh and him pressuring her to try things and bringing the kid to try things was another form of exploring pleasure vicariously and had the same "I don't care what you want I need this for my research" vibe just with a less violated feeling. :(
FalcorDragon
2023-02-14 21:06:06 +0000 UTCIt 100% was seen differently at the time and the time (I'm 47) and it's eye opening watching it back now after all these years! In the end it was definitely seen as wrong but because of the fact that you have to approach aliens from their cultural perspective it was explained away. :( Definitely,, life experience including almost all of these literal threats and manipulations after the fact adds a TON of perspective.
FalcorDragon
2023-02-14 21:04:52 +0000 UTCYeah the moment of Picard being overpowered is a gross violation, and it is something that still creeps me out when I see it. I agree that Picard should have been quite clear as to why the kidnapping of a sentient being and submitting them to force in order to try to elicit emotions is deeply wrong. This remains one of my least favorite episodes.
Jay Fleming
2023-02-14 20:57:04 +0000 UTC6Even 30 years ago this was offputting. But back then I don't think I viewed it as rape or assault. I didn't like it then and it's one of the few I never watched in reruns. I think I find it a lot more offensive today. Maybe ive grown up. But also being older than most of the people here " No meaning no" was n t universally accepted in among everyone back then.
Mark Ten
2023-02-14 20:55:42 +0000 UTCI agree that it should have been addressed more, but I can also imagine that, for the time it was made, saying "what you did to me was a crime" was already more progressive than any other show might've done. Overall I always enjoyed this one, especially how ridiculous it gets on the Enterprise, when Worf is fighting one ambassador, while the other watches and snacks on chocolate.
MrEvers
2023-02-14 20:50:17 +0000 UTCThis ep started off reminding the gals of their first between-season TOS ep. "Journey to Babel," and it might have ended by reminding them of their second, "The Savage Curtain," since it also uses the well worn (and, IMHO, over-used) trope of an alien being/culture not understanding a human(oid) concept, and coercing Our Heroes into demonstrating it for them.
Ken Quick
2023-02-14 20:10:12 +0000 UTCThe episode mix-up was fixed between you watching the "Interface" reaction and posting the above comment. This is now the thread for Ep. 2, "Liasons."
Ken Quick
2023-02-14 20:07:04 +0000 UTCIt's a shame that it took seven seasons to find that Geordi even had a family. It's a familiar premise, an alien masquerading as a friend or family member, it was a good episode. Especially with more of the Data and Geordi friendship. I do hope that you might plan to get together for the finale. Along with your support narwhals, of course.🙂🖖
Bruce Bromley
2023-02-14 19:28:27 +0000 UTC
