Rightful Heir, Gallifrey Gals Get Warped! S6ep23
Added 2022-12-20 18:00:05 +0000 UTCKat calls it like it is... This season is heavily Worf based and they're not mad about it one bit!
Thank you all for being here with us on these watch throughs and thank you for always being a supportive and wonderful community!
https://vimeo.com/782608321/01073c90a5
PAULA DEMING
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KATRINA ALYSHA
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Gallifrey Gals Theme Song by: NoAnie Music
https://www.fiverr.com/noaniemusic
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Comments
"I am the fag you said my Father hates," ~Jesus, Matthew 25:31-46. I had that as a bumper sticker on my previous vehicle. I absolutely agree with everything you said about christianity. And it's sad. My mom's a preacher's kid, her two brothers were preachers, one of her sisters married a preacher, I got a bunch of preacher cousins... But they don't understand The Red Letters. We're basically excommunicated from the rest of the family because we don't think Christ's Love should have limits and conditions, and we believe that the Earth is more than 7000 years old..... For God to be God, God must be bigger than one set of writings from a short period of history of one corner of one planet in one galaxy in this universe or multiverse.... The Infinite Creator of All that Was, Is, and Ever Shall Be, isn't as bigoted and petty as humans have portrayed. And is much more disappointed.
Dan Williams
2023-11-28 03:35:29 +0000 UTCI always felt so incredibly sad for the Kahless clone - his reaction to learning who he really was... the way he slumps away and how his demeanor changes. He was, in fact, an "innocent" life form being used, even if the reasons were for the good of their people. The fact that his dignity is restored at the end - even as a "figure head" - always made me feel a little happy for him.
Visible Pixels
2023-02-03 21:21:13 +0000 UTCThe truth is what the facts are, if it can't be shown to be true, it can't be called truth. And what can't be shown to be true merits no serious consideration. Especially if it can't even be shown that it might be true.
Chrissonator
2022-12-22 16:44:50 +0000 UTCDoesn't that assume you know what's "the truth" and what's "a lie?"
Ben Chan
2022-12-22 13:02:35 +0000 UTCTrue, but to that I'd say that's more a personal belief about himself, not a belief about the universe itself.
Chrissonator
2022-12-22 01:47:31 +0000 UTCThe spiritual discussion aside, isn't funny that Worf, in a private little meeting, just changed the entire structure of the Klingon Empire just based on his suggestion?
Joe Concepts
2022-12-22 01:46:06 +0000 UTCBut interesting with Data's second scene with Worf he then does talk about something he had to believe in that maybe wasn't true based on what everyone else believed.
Joe Concepts
2022-12-22 01:44:52 +0000 UTCThat's mainly because Gene Roddenberry was of the view that in the future, humans have outgrown that kinda stuff.
Chrissonator
2022-12-21 20:33:16 +0000 UTCI'm kinda like Data on the subject. For me, there is what's supported by evidence and what's not supported by evidence, and for me, what isn't supported by evidence merits no serious consideration. I don't believe something simply because it might make me feel good. I forget who said it, but I'd rather accept an uncomfortable truth, than believe a comforting lie.
Chrissonator
2022-12-21 20:28:48 +0000 UTCReally fantastic discussion at the end of this one Gals, absolutely loved it :)
Jay S
2022-12-21 05:02:41 +0000 UTC"You can pulp a story, but you cannot kill an idea!" -Some Author somewhere.
Nolan
2022-12-21 04:32:03 +0000 UTCI've never been capable of faith (not raised in any religion - I guess I'd be described as agnostic since I don't think humans are capable of fully understanding existence), but if someone has it and it helps them get through life, more power to you. I wish I had that as a source of guidance, community and comfort. But as with almost all things, when the thing you value hurts other people, and you ascribe to the notion that it's okay to hurt others because they are somehow less, then I oppose you.
Ben Chan
2022-12-21 01:55:58 +0000 UTCThat was a very nuanced conversation at the end. I have a complicated history with religion and have always felt it’s harmful to teach people to suspend disbelief and to not think critically. I hate religion for religion’s sake and tradition for tradition’s sake. I also think religion has been a net negative in our world and continues to be because of all the harm people have done and continue to do because they believe they’re carrying out a god’s will or that they have divine superiority over others. All that being said, I’ve learned it’s not right for me to judge someone whose supernatural beliefs are benign. I’m an atheist and choose not to observe any religious or cultural traditions, but my parents are Reform Jews who observe some religious/cultural traditions. My father would always make fun of some members of our extended family who were more religiously/culturally observant, and I always thought it was just harmless ribbing, until one of those family members told me how much that made them hurt. I was GUTTED. I felt horrible that I hadn’t respected the life choices of those close to me and stood by and laughed while their identities weren’t being respected. It especially hit home, as I constantly have to defend my own identity as an atheist Jew, but I couldn’t envision that others who weren’t like me faced a similar struggle. I try to be less judgmental now (although I will still call a spade a spade when someone is using religion as an excuse to do harm). Thank you to both Paula and Kat for providing your perspectives. You soften my cynicism.
Matthew Zeidman
2022-12-21 00:42:04 +0000 UTCThe older I get, the more I appreciate Worf as a character. He grew up estranged from his culture, despite his parents doing their best to include it as a part of his life. As such, his drive to prove himself as a true Klingon did lead him to be a pure and devout believer in the faiths, lore and ideals of his people, separate from the way politics and secularism and the day-to-day have influenced and impacted the beliefs of his people, resulting in him having a more pure and detached form of belief than those that his society had ended up dictating to the rest of his people. And I think DS9 did a great job continuing this aspect of his character. I suppose in a way, the most direct comparison to Worf in todays world would be an LGBTQ Christian, one who has had to reconcile their believes with their life, one which is condemned by the "populist" beliefs of that religion. In fact, I follow a Gay pastor on Twitter and it's one of the best follows because his views are so much more refreshing and not mired in the contemporary view that is put forward as the basis of religion. For me, I don't consider myself particularly devout, I question much, but I still Believe. My faith is unaffected by my questions about my Religion, because to me, those are separate things. My faith is MINE. It is MY journey, MY relationship. It is not my Religion's. The Religion is the interpretation of faith, the group of people that share a faith and espouse it to the world and represents a group of faith. And far too often do I find my faith not in alignment with the Religion. Worf IS the Christian who looks at the populists beliefs of today and is bewildered by the hypocrisy, the judgement, the hatred, the idolization of other ideals, the love of wealth over people, the elitism and the anger that consumes what is put forward as Christianity today and wonders what happened to the ideals of his fellow believers who will pay lip-service to the founding ideals, but then act against them while telling themselves they aren't. Did not Jesus preach about loving one another above all, about forgiveness, about redemption and peace? Did he not say that those who live by the sword die by the sword? Religion today has interpreted those in a way that does not line up with my Faith. Worf is also a member of any other belief who is struggling with their Religion and its place in the world. Faith is NEVER the problem, but the Religion, made of of mere People, IS. People are ALWAYS the problem. Hell, Worf is me in my current relationship with the new paradigm of Star Trek. I find it reductive, stereotypical and almost cartoonish in its depiction of the issues and characters it presents, and in many ways counter to the ideals the franchise was based on, and yet, constantly touted as the epitome of those ideals. The point is, for whatever issues one might have with the Systems built around and within a Religion, those should not have any bearing on one's Faith, for that is theirs alone, separate and distinct from the Religion it grew out of and bravo to this episode for tackling all of that interplay and personal struggle and political power in 45 minutes in a way that does nto condemn nor affirm but merely fosters understanding, because that is what this show is about, fostering understanding of the world. Just like religion and just like science at their cores..
Nolan
2022-12-20 23:32:55 +0000 UTCThanks for the thoughtful convo.
Stephen Kronfeld
2022-12-20 21:54:04 +0000 UTCTNG rarely talks about faith and religion. But when it does, it does it very deftly and with subtlety and depth and respect.
Jay Fleming
2022-12-20 21:06:08 +0000 UTC"Someday Ill return, yes. Ill return." Are you sure Kayles isnt plagiarizing Hartnel's goodbye to Susan?
Mark Ten
2022-12-20 20:29:23 +0000 UTCIncidentally, I particularly love Gowron's "Have you ever fought an idea, Picard?" speech. He's got more going for him than just crazy eyes.
MARK F JENKINS
2022-12-20 20:23:42 +0000 UTCI didn't mean to contest your point, I agree that Star Trek shows except DS9 mostly portray religion in a negative light.
Hampus Theander
2022-12-20 20:19:38 +0000 UTCI guess that means Gowron is John Major(or Rishi Sunak).
Judge Brehon
2022-12-20 20:18:04 +0000 UTCI guess that's mostly true. My main point is that Trek tends to deal with the negative aspects of religion than any positive ones.
Joe Concepts
2022-12-20 20:16:17 +0000 UTCWow, you two aren't afraid to just jump right in to the religion angle, are you? XD But it was a great post-ep discussion and made me think, as did the episode. I recalled something I had read about Gene Roddenberry, who (as Paula mentioned) was a secular humanist: when he married Majel "Momma Troi" Barrett, it was in Japan, and so they elected to have a Shinto wedding ceremony-- not because he believed in Shinto, but because he thought it would be disrespectful to the culture to have done it in some other form. Respect for others' beliefs while maintaining one's own? That's so Trek. P.S. Kat, you are right: dogs have souls-- mine has told me so. ;)
MARK F JENKINS
2022-12-20 20:15:57 +0000 UTCMy therapist kept telling me that other people cant put pressure on me if I dont let them. That stressed me out.
Mark Ten
2022-12-20 20:12:54 +0000 UTCBasically, they resolved the situation by making Kahless into Queen Elizabeth(or King Charles today).
Judge Brehon
2022-12-20 20:12:30 +0000 UTCEven as an atheist I have the greatest respect for personal religious beliefs, when those beliefs cross over to organized religion, which tries to influence a large populous into doing things or restricting the lives and freedoms of those people, I strongly object. The problem Star Trek has with religion is not religion in it self, its the evil actions that can be committed and legitimized by an organized religion, the dangers of relying on that kind of organization as a pillar of belief, Its a warning that shows that you have to think independently to not fall into these traps.
Hampus Theander
2022-12-20 20:08:56 +0000 UTC"What does it matter if he returns?" While some Christians dismiss the idea of forgetting the more supernatural aspects of their religion, I think we can mostly agree that if someone looked at Jesus as simply a human philosopher and people followed his teachings that way, the world would STILL be better off.
Joe Concepts
2022-12-20 20:05:11 +0000 UTCThey gave Micheal Dorn some great stuff before he shipped off to DS9. What I know of religion I took from Brian Cohen. You don't need to follow anybody and we just have to work it out for ourselves. :-)
Bruce Bromley
2022-12-20 19:55:54 +0000 UTCI appreciate this episode actually exploring faith and religion. Trek in general, including TNG and even TOS tend to treat religious as some dumb, outdated superstition that every should outgrow. I can definitely see someone thinking that way, looking at the bad things that religion could bring. But I was raised by and grew up with enough religious people to not be able to dismiss them as stupid or misguided. Deep Space Nine is actually the first Trek show that explores religion thoughtfully. The entire series features a civilization very focused on religion, and they make it complicated. It sometimes shown to be good, sometimes bad.
Joe Concepts
2022-12-20 19:37:26 +0000 UTCJesus allegory Klingon! I loved Data's little talk with Worf about taking a leap of faith. I would say that the majority of DS9 episodes do not have anything to do with religion. Some do, but maybe 1/5 at most.
Henchman Twenty1
2022-12-20 19:37:12 +0000 UTCI know they couldn't do this for time but I imagine the clone once he realized the truth would like have a complete psychic breakdown and spend the rest of the episode screaming in horror.
Mike
2022-12-20 18:54:29 +0000 UTC
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