Timeless Children, Gallifrey Gals Get Wibbly Wobbly! S12ep10

Paula you are right about this era of the show being good! and there being nothing wrong with the Timeless Child storyline. I did however feel a lot of negative emotions watching this first time, but then realised it was the writer getting me to feel how the doctor felt. I would point out though that it was the Great Intelligence that rewrote the Doctor's history, Clara just undid what'd been changed. Looking forward to see reactions to flux as again I thought that was better than most did.

Matthew Beckford

Did i misunderstand something, the river song story still makes sense to me. Timelords got their abilities from the timeless child and wanted to pass this on to their descendants, couldnt one of the methods be through being in a tardis too long or at critical stages like as a fetus or baby? This way timelords could make new timelords by bringing people into the tardis on their honeymoons? Keep the genetic diversity high. Like who knows whats going on if you have 12 lives where some you are a man or woman, might be marrying your own sister?

Merkavar

That, and the fact that now The Doctor technically isn't a Timelord but something else, some wholly different species. I'm not even too upset about the first not being the first, but this other fact is what gets me.

J Riley

So the first doctor isn't the first. That's all that we we're mad about. Still love you guys but laughing at us who really didn't like this twist isn't cool either. I support when I can, love Jodie, she deserves more respect than she's ever gotten. Play with the status coue all you want, just don't piss on the roots.

Chuckleberry Finn

@Keith -- Amen. I was angry too. I hate being told I'm 'overreacting'. It's how I reacted. I can't help it. Different people react different ways and that's okay.

Nicole Mazza

As CS Lewis once wrote, "Feelings are not things you do. Feelings are things that happen to you." Anger is the feeling that happened to me when I saw this episode the first time. A different feeling happened to you. That's fine. We react how we react, we feel how we feel.

Keith Goodnight

Completely disagree with everything you've said. And being angry is a bit of an overreaction, don't you think? Let's not go down the route of the toxic Star Wars and Star Trek fandoms which are, frankly, embarrassing at times.

mark saunders

I'm completely on board with Paula's fix of the River Song story. It never made sense that the time stream would lead Time Lords to be able to regenerate (or River Song)--the ability seems quite orthogonal to time travel. But an innate ability harvested from an other-planar life form--perhaps from the future, perhaps from the past, perhaps from just a parallel reality--makes much more sense. And THEN the ability to regenerate and thus be quasi-immortal gives them time and relatively less breakability so they can explore and do things like learning to do time travel. Also, the Tardis has a consciousness, it could have DELIBERATELY taken the Doctor's DNA and mixed it into River as she was conceived because it knew that was what was going to happen. The future often causes the past when Tardises are involved!

Robert Elessar

Didnt care for destroying Gallifrey again after all that we went through to bring it back. Reminds me of Alien 3 where we became so invested in the kid's survival in Alien 2... then in the sequel she's killed off screen before the movie starts. Last of the Time Lords every other regeneration.

Mark Ten

I really like the Timeless Child story and the possibilities for future Who. I don't think it ruins the theme of the Doctor being special because they choose to be so. The memories are gone, were gone when the Doctor stole the Tardis and ran. Really, even with the memories gone, the abuse and experimentation were probably subconsciously a reason to run. Their choices since going on the run had nothing to do with being the Timeless Child. So there Doctor is special because they choose to be and even though they have this knowledge now there are so many lives and memories they may never recover.

Alisa Loudner

Honestly Paula, your reaction was exactly what my reaction was on the first watch, I was actually okay with it all, but then I let reviewers in videos I watched later on get into my head and ended up becoming really cynical and bitter about it. But truthfully, since watching your reaction, I now have a new found love for it. Totally agree with you on series 11, I don't think Zim/Tim Shore/Shaw was an interesting enough arc for me, but then again that was Chibnall's first showran series, so it's not necessarily gonna be perfect. But yeah, if anything I don't think it was newfounded at all, I think I've always felt that way about the timeless child arc underneath all of the pretentious cynicism. I think it's really cool. But of course everyone's welcome to have their opinion, there's nothing wrong with liking something a lot of people dislike and vice versa. I'm sorry to hear about the YouTube comments, people can be real dicks on there at times. I suppose that's what you get in a public forum without any real mods. But yeah I absolutely love you guys and your reactions! Can't wait for you to see series 13 Paula! 💙

Jack Bonner

There were a way so that I wouldn't have minded the Ruth Doctor and the retcon. But the Doctor should never has been special. I don't like that Chibnall put the chosen one trope onto the Doctor. The Doctor was a simple Gallifreyan, that was nothing special and chose to be different. Now he is special and it's more like predetermination. The Doctor is special now, because he is special and not because he's a normal person that made a choice. I don't like it.

Red Claw

I really, really despise the whole Timeless Child thing, but before I go on to rant about it— and since you raised this concern at the end of your video— let me start with: Kat and Paula, we are all still fans together. We evidently disagree about this point, but that's okay. I have sometimes disagreed and sometimes agreed with you in the past. In times to come I will probably sometimes disagree and sometimes agree again, but I'll still love your reaction videos in either case. Now on to my venting at the show: I don't care at all whether something is a "retcon" or not. Doctor Who has never had tight continuity (over its history, there've been multiple Atlantises, multiple extinctions of the dinosaurs, two Loch Ness monsters). Retcon doesn't matter even a tiny little bit. What matters is whether it's a *good* change in the mythology or not, and I don't believe the Timeless Child is— your mileage is free to vary, of course, this is just my own reaction, but: The Doctor is a "madman with a box," not the Special Chosen One, God Of Time. Being THE DOCTOR is enough. The 1970s era "series bible" by Terrance Dicks has been quoted a couple of times in dialogue in new Who, describing the Doctor's character this way: "Never cruel, never cowardly. Never gives up, never gives in." THAT is what's great about the Doctor, not the unknown backstory, which is just window dressing. The Timeless Child doesn't add to that, it takes away from it, in a way that really bugs me. And as far as that mysterious backstory goes, for its purpose in shaping the character it was better left simply unstated rather than being given such specific definition, being turned into a puzzle to solve. From that angle, the Timeless Child felt very similar to when Star Wars Episode I announced that you can measure the Force with in a blood test. There've been bad episodes in the show's long history (I'm looking at you, "Horns of Nimon" or "Underworld" or anything written by Pip & Jane Baker) but this is the first one that actually made me angry.

Keith Goodnight

I absolutely love the Timeless Child revelation and the Doctor being the Timeless Child. It’s also quite a personal arc for me because it deals with themes of adoption and identity, and I’m adopted myself. So I’ve been really able to connect to many aspects of this arc. In fact Chris Chibnall confirmed in a Doctor Who Magazine interview that he’s adopted himself and said the Timeless Child is an adoption myth. The Doctor not being from Gallifrey just makes so much sense when you consider the fact that they’ve always felt out of place there. It’s their home and where they were brought up, but I think throughout the show you can see that the Doctor just wants to belong somewhere, and it’s not just because they’re a Time Traveller, it’s much deeper than that, which for me as an adoptee I relate to so much.

The Adopted Whovian

My feelings about this series (and the previous one) were and are complicated. I enjoyed it, I kept watching it, and when we got to this episode I'm pretty sure I felt all the things they wanted me to feel. But I'll admit that there was a touch of disappointment through many of the episodes, even though I'm still not sure I can point to a particular element or cause for that feeling. My best guess is probably a kind of reverse to what Paula talks about here: being so excited about having the Doctor be a woman and me psyching myself up for something amazingly awesome to only be really good, making it seem like it was worse than it actually was. I think its something that can happen with any sort of sequel/spin-off/franchise thing, particularly any of the long running ones. (Star Trek doesn't have this issue despite also being a ridiculously long-running franchise with multiple branches of its lore, and all its fans have cordial, respectful and logical discussions about its variations without acrimony. And if you believe that, well you'll believe that the Cybermen and the Borg have nothing in common.) There's a nostalgia that builds up for the thing you like, making it seem better than it really was and making it hard for the latest version or incarnation to live up to. Its something that is almost impossible to be done without disappointing some part of the fanbase, because there'll be some that don't like it because its not exactly the thing they remember, and others who'll complain about it being a redo of the original. In a bunch of ways, each incarnation of the Doctor and each new showrunner is like a sequel series to the previous one. Obviously there are cast changes, production style changes, pacing and tone changes, but they all at least aim to build on and continue from what's gone before, and each series (and collection of them with the different people out front and calling the shots) and each individual episode and even each reference manages that to varying degrees of success.

AJ

Fun =D

BriefMortal

That's fair. Like what you like. It's not hurting you or anyone else, so... enjoy :)

Bill

Oh ok. I just like the idea of the show saying that it doesn't matter where they're placed or how many there are because the Doctor is the Doctor. I think it's so much fun to have a way now, where someone, no matter who wants to in the future, can introduce new things or dip into the Doctor's past in an easy way.

RPGsus Plays

Nah, it's all good :) I enjoyed this season until this episode. It's still not 'Argh no! Gah! I hate things!' just... '*shrug* Meh. Didn't like this'. Oh! And that 'let's move on' was intended as a development comment, not anything about this discussion :)

Bill

Sorry to bother you. Also, sorry if I seemed rude. I guess I just like what this era is going for.

RPGsus Plays

Which still equates to 'no answers, let's move on.'

Bill

Saying "Have you been limited by who you were before" and "When have you cared about who you were" are not the same. She's telling herself that finding out these things shouldn't hold her back from being the Doctor. She's still her no matter what she learns or doesn't know. Who she was before has never stopped her in the past from pressing on, saying she's the Doctor, and saving people. This should be no different. She still values her past that she does know.

RPGsus Plays

I’ve been watching DW since the late 1960s, through numerous regenerations, stylistic and theme changes, and so on, and have no problem at all with the Timeless Child arc. People say it has broken the show’s canon, but Doctor Who doesn’t have, and never did have, a consistent overarching canon. Unlike Middle Earth, or Star Trek or Star Wars, it never started with a defined consistent universe and history. The name Time Lords wasn’t thought of until the end of Troughton’s era, and Gallifrey wasn’t named until the end of Pertwee’s run. Writers have cobbled pieces of lore and history as they’ve gone along, sometimes dismantling what’s gone before. The name of the show is Doctor Who, with the original intention that the Doctor was some mysterious traveler, of unknown origins. “Doctor Who” was never about his name (apart from a little joke in the very first episode when Ian calls him Doctor Forman, and the Doctor says “What’s he talking about? Doctor who?”). It was really only Moffatt who got obsessed with the Doctor’s name. It’s more about the mystery of the character, something that has gradually been lost over the years as we’ve discovered more about him/her. RTD brought some of that mystery back in 2005, but it’s been whittled away again. The Timeless Child, for me, reintroduces that mystery. It doesn’t make the Doctor a god or all powerful - we just don’t know where he/she came from to begin with. I also feel this fits perfectly well with the Time Lords’ duplicitous nature - creating a history which we think we know, but hiding the truth. Nor does it mean what we’ve seen revealed here is the truth, either. I think it’s a great concept, done very well, and I’m here for the ride, as I have been for over 50 years.

Lloyd B

None of The Doctors questions were answered. She just asked herself "When have you ever cared about who you were?" and she just dropped it and moved on. That would have solved a lot of issues for Eccelston's Doctor. Previous me just led a war that annihilated billions... but why should I care about that guy? Let's go dancing! Nah. Not for me. *shrug*

Bill

How were there no answers? Genuinely curious. Plus, 13 didn't just say "Ok. Happy genocide." She told him no and fought him on it until he basically had to yell at her to run.

RPGsus Plays

"I didn't know any of that." Nobody did. It was heaved out in under 25 minutes and, while it doesn't 'retcon' the Timelords and Gallifrey, it does seriously toss a bunch of "uhmmm, but..." moments into 60+ years of story. Let's not even get into The Division nonsense. (And Clara was a terrible plot device character with no redeeming qualities). Paula asking "What? When? How?" and knowing there are no answers coming unless RTD decides to revisit this mess. You can't tie the treads together by saying "Have you ever cared about who you were?" and answering "No". Nothing is tied together, you just don't care that dozens of loose threads are just hanging there. We'll ignore the Cyberium even though we've seen the origin of the Cybermen a few times before and these couple of episodes are the first it's ever been mentioned, let alone be a huge MacGuffin. The Doctor Does Not Murder. The Doctor Does Not Commit Genocide. The Master knows The Doctor can't do it because it's 100% against EVERYTHING she is. Oh but hey, if some other rando wants to push the button it's fine. It's not The Doctors fault unless she sees it happen or pushes the button herself. No. We know the War Doctor did some terrible things and every Doctor that has come since (Eccelston, Tennant, Smith, and Whittaker) have all gone through emotional moments where they anguish over the fact that they murdered countless billions in that war. And here we see The Doctor just "Okay, you push that button while I run. Happy genocide to you!" The Master Won. Run from your decisions Doctor. Booooooo-urns! Booooooo! But, watching with the Gals is always fun and this episode does have a LOT of good bits. The Master is just *chef's kiss* Sacha Dhawan is just glorious,

Bill

I loved that classic 👍🏼

Sufyaan Kazi

As much as I don't like some of Chibnalls' writing, sometimes he does write really good things. I don't think this is a retcon, he tied it all together and gave this show an opportunity to let the doctor keep on regenerating and regenerating, us the show could keep going on if it was allowed to. But, why Chibs irritates me are things like that stupid stupid ending. Ko Sharmus may as well have ordered a takeaway, dictated a letter, narrated a sonnet, he was given so much time to speak, it was such a clunky convenient way to "end" the episode. The convenient way they just found the doctor in such a huge planet, how they conveniently found a TARDIS. it embarrassed me that In expected a fan to ignore it, ofcourse is just a tv show and take some liberties, but these are so so clunky. It was kinda like "that frog" 😭 Otherwise, Jodie and Sacha were amazing. Great scene with Graham and Yas. "Become death, become me" such classic Master

Sufyaan Kazi

Nice!

John

It's even better than it was the last two times I saw it. You have to go back and watch the "regeneration sequence" in slow motion. I'm sure somebody's posted it on youtube. It's all brilliant. I agree with Paula. all the worst episodes are by Moffat. (although the one I think is the worst episode in series history, she liked.)

Bob Hughes

The assassinated presidents remark from the master is a reference to the Deadly Assassin arc from classic who.

William Green

Overall I enjoyed Chibnall/Jodie's run up to this point. Really enjoyed some of the episodes in series 11 they are some of my favourite Who episodes overall. Series 12 still has some good episodes but for me doesn't have any I'd pick out and say "this is one of the best". But overall enjoyed it. Upto this point. The series finale just does do it for me, don't like where the Chibnall takes the story. While I enjoyed Jodie's performance as the Doctor overall, her performance in this episode doesn't do it for me (but admit, that may just be me). But there is no hate, people have different opinions and glad to see you enjoyed it.

TheHimble

They answer about her Tardis in a Ruth Doctor comic that Chibnall supervised. If you want to look it up.

RPGsus Plays

I think enjoyed the rewatch with you more than the my original viewing - The trolls had it in for Jodie & Chris because they felt the series would become too woke because of casting a woman before they even saw it. Retconning doesnt bother me much, esp in a series approaching 60 years old. Still, not sure Im a fan of the Doctor having so many past unknown lives. I like the idea of Hartnel being the original... you might say.

Mark Ten

Mark Ten

It does open up more possibilities. Just my opinion, but Gallifrey and the Times Lords were inadvertently used as a limit to how big or powerful a villian the Doctor could face. It is mostly in throw-away lines, but I got the impression that the Time Lords didn't want rivals in the Universe warping stakes. More stories with the Doctor stepping in to something completely unknown is welcome and we have had a good few with Jodie's run already. (Though it'd have been better to see Gallifrey taken down a peg instead of taken out, but we'll see).

Funny That

Really? Overdramatic much? 57 years of Doctor Who history has not been flushed down the toilet! Lol I swear, some Doctor Who fans act like crybabies when something happens that they don't agree with. Sorry your feelings were hurt.

mark saunders

That's exactly what I thought too! It's really cool!

RPGsus Plays

In a way the Master has completed the whole "hybrid" prophecy this season, by destroying Gallifrey and fusing with the cyberium.

MrEvers

And there it is, the episode that basically takes 57 years of Doctor Who history, declares it a "lie" and flushes it down the toilet in favor of something that makes the Doctor something more magical than what they are. The whole point of the Doctor was that their "specialness" came from being a good person and an adventurous one, willing to do what very, very few Time Lords are willing to do: go see the universe, rather than just sit back and "observe" it. That's what makes the Doctor a more special character than, say, Superman, who's just special because he comes from another planet and therefore has mystical powers. The Doctor's got abilities, but in the end, they're just a person who was smart, but a bad student back home, a bit of a misfit among their own people, and became special through curiosity, compassion and bravery. Nope. I refuse to buy it. The Doctor is a Time Lord, born on Gallifrey, raised on Gallifrey. Not some interdimensional magical being that inadvertently gave the Time Lords their abilities.

Scribbles

I love this episode! I think it makes the Doctor so interesting, leaves so many possibilities for new villains, friends, or even Doctors to show up, and make sense if Doctor Who decides to do that. It re-contextualizes so many past stories in amazing and fun ways as well. Also, I don't agree with the "Doctor is a god" conclusion or that it should have been the Master. The Doctor is a victim. Someone exploited and abused. Her ability was seen as an opportunity by the woman she trusted. Used to create, then memory wiped and lied to. Tecteun created the Time lords by abusing her child, they named themselves time lords (which is a whole other level of messed up), they created Gallifrey and called themselves superior when all they have is off the back of someone who can't speak up. As for the Master, I think some don't realize his interpretation is based solely on his already feeling inferior to the Doctor. He views it as the ultimate victory over him, something he can't hope to beat when in reality it makes them more similar than ever imo. Finally, just thought I'd add a fun re- contextualization here after hearing Paula's River explanation. The Time Lords didn't actually gift more regenerations but they pretended to to keep up the lie.

RPGsus Plays