The Outcast, Gallifrey Gals Get Warped! S5Ep17
Added 2022-04-26 17:01:01 +0000 UTCAnother TNG episode that has so many parallels to today. Katrina and Paula break down the topics discussed in todays episode from a modern context.
https://vimeo.com/702936759/712f1a4416
PAULA DEMING
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KATRINA ALYSHA
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Comments
I don't think I've watched this episode since the 90's, glad I did again. It's a close to home episode: Conversion Therapy... ....I love how Worf holds one opinion at the beginning and then recognizes the error of his views and comes around to full support, willing to risk his own life to protect the Rights of those he had previously misunderstood.
Dan Williams
2023-11-22 00:43:52 +0000 UTCI just have to say…next episode…top 5 of the show.
Brett Delbridge
2022-05-03 11:00:47 +0000 UTCI think that community wasn't thrilled with how when discussing the sexes, neither Riker or Crusher bring up homosexuals. They do kind of talk like that doesn't exist, when I think even other TV shows in the '90s might at least acknowledge that.
Joe Concepts
2022-04-28 15:31:18 +0000 UTCYes, I remember this question came up in Seinfeld when someone asked a lesbian this.
Joe Concepts
2022-04-28 15:28:32 +0000 UTCFantastic point about ABA, I appreciate you mentioning that.
Malcolm Wolf
2022-04-27 08:37:51 +0000 UTCTrigger warning (discussion of institutionalized abuse) I haven’t watched this episode for quite awhile, and watching it back with you all now, I can see it not only through the LGBTQIA+ lens that the writer intended, but also through a neurodivergent one. As a society, we’re taught to pathologize anything that deviates from the “default” human experience. Difference, no matter how benign, is considered a disease or defect that needs a “cure.” That “cure” often takes the form of conversion therapy. Conversion therapy is, unfortunately, still very common. While many states have outlawed gay/trans conversion therapy, autistic conversion therapy (otherwise known as applied behavior analysis or “ABA”) is falsely promoted around the world as the “gold standard of treatment” for autistic people (especially children). Gay/trans conversion therapy and autistic conversion therapy were both invented by psychologist and con man O. Ivar Lovaas, who used electric shocks, beatings and other cruel methods to try to coerce both autistic and LGBTQIA+ youths into acting “normal.” His goal was to make his “subjects,” whom he didn’t view as human, “indistinguishable” from their neurotypical and straight/cisgender peers. He considered his methods successful and never apologized or paid any price for the lives he ruined. While, today, the walls are closing in on practitioners of gay/trans conversion therapy, autistic conversion therapy has become a multi-billion dollar industry that exploits desperate parents and makes autistic individuals exposed to it 86 percent more likely to experience PTSD and substantially more likely to burn out, commit suicide or become victims of sexual and domestic assault/abuse. Practitioners of autistic conversion therapy claim their modern methods are “kinder and gentler” than those Lovaas used decades ago; they’re full of shit and dedicate their entire educations and careers to studying his methods and keeping his pseudoscience alive. There is no ethical way to practice conversion therapy of any kind. Another heavy topic of discussion. I feel like these watch-alongs are turning into group therapy sessions (which isn’t a bad thing). Until next week….
Matthew Zeidman
2022-04-27 06:32:48 +0000 UTCApart from when I would’ve originally seen it, this may be only the second time I’ve watched this episode. (Maybe the third, but you get the idea.) Its been a long time since I’ve seen it last, and I think I’d mostly filed it away as a really good episode that has some issues that are from people doing the best they can and/or be allowed to do given the circumstances of the time when it was made, and it being a down episode because one of the people we’re supposed to root for loses. I definitely haven’t seen it since coming out as non-binary, until now. It’s not a perfect episode. While I wonder if the episode would’ve been better with certain changes, I also wonder how effective it would’ve been in getting the audience to think. As much as we shouldn’t have to drag people towards more inclusive thinking, telling people that they’re wrong too bluntly can slow them down even further. Though it’s not surprising that you Gals expressed the beliefs you did in this episode, it’s still really nice to hear them being said. Recognising the rights of others doesn’t take away from your own.
AJ
2022-04-27 04:52:42 +0000 UTCI'm a straight white male, so my opinion is only based on my own experience, but also having very close friends who happened to be gay, and a few who recently became trans. I don't know if they've watched this episode or their thoughts on it, but to me, I thought it was very well done, especially for 1992, however it is sad that certain factions in the political landscape are trying to bring things back to what I would consider the "bad old days" by pushing people back into the "closet" so they can score political points with their extremist base (Sorry, I live in Florida and it's getting bad)
Chris Lane- Venturi 3D
2022-04-27 02:23:34 +0000 UTCI know it's a Hollywood cliche, but as a straight, white, conservative male, "who leads when you dance?" is a question that has not once entered my thoughts. Why do writers seem to think this is such a burning question in anyone's mind?
Verteron
2022-04-27 01:40:30 +0000 UTCThis was one of the "filler" episodes for me when it first aired. I didnt appreciate it like I do now. Star Trek, until 2009, was phenomenal in that it could reach anyone regardless of politics, personal or religious beliefs. It's what Trek was created for. Unfortunately, that's been lost in the newer incarnations of the franchise. It's not easy for me to say but that quality that u all love, that WE all love, is gone. Ive watched Trek regularly since I was 6yrs old. That's the year TOS first went into syndication so its not easy for me to say it. Our Trek is dead. Ur lucky because u still have DS9, Voyager and Enterprise. There's also Star Trek: Continues (a web-based series that continues the TOS original 5 year mission).
Sal Sanchez
2022-04-27 00:52:04 +0000 UTCIt's true that Jeri Taylor who not only wrote this episode but produced it as well was initially confused by the rather "meh" reaction from the gay and lesbian communities but later understood the storyline hoped for was not about rights but about a time where humanity had moved past the very social mores feats and bigotry displayed here and same sex relationships were accepted and cherished. Glad to say more recent television has gone in this direction.
Mark Chrisco
2022-04-26 23:24:54 +0000 UTCA great episode doing what classic trek does best, taking a topic and exploring it in a way that shows rather than tells and uses science fiction and metaphor to explore real world subjects. This is one of the biggest things that modern (CBS/Kurtzman) Trek has not been able to capture with their iterations (imo).
Tristan Rose
2022-04-26 23:13:08 +0000 UTCAbsolutely LOVE the turn-around of perspective. Well done writers. You two going back through these is great for finding all these episodes that tackled or even just touched on sensitive issues and discussions.
Bill
2022-04-26 23:08:24 +0000 UTCTo paraphrase a certain Professor Moriarty, from a previous episode, your two's silences spoke volumes. You two didn't have to say a thing
Bruce Bromley
2022-04-26 23:05:16 +0000 UTCUsually it's Katrina's reactions that makes me tear up re-watching these episodes, but surprise! This time it's Paula that set me off. Regarding Riker's seeming lapse into heteronormative speak by using "she" in the 10 Forward scene, I looked back and it was actually more even-handed: SOREN: We use a pronoun which is neutral. I do not think there is really a translation. RIKER: Then I'll just have to muddle through. So forgive me if a stray "he" or "she" slips by, okay?
Raja
2022-04-26 22:46:20 +0000 UTCMan when Katrina cries, I cry. I remember this as the episode that tried to convince audiences that homosexuality is not wrong nor unusual in society, along with an attack on "gay conversion therapy" that was all the rage in the 80s and 90s (still exists now, but nowhere near the scale it had then). Thinking about this again 30 years later sure does feel like the episode is trying to convince audiences that gender identity and sexuality are all wrapped together (you could say there's "intersectionality"?) and again, nothing wrong nor unusual about these concepts. Soren's impassioned defense of gender identity really got me this time, more so than in previous viewings. It's been maybe 10 years since I watched this one last, and I frankly forgot about that speech and how good it really is.
Jarrod Wild
2022-04-26 22:31:01 +0000 UTCClearly you need to start DS9 at the appropriate time and if I need to increase my patreon support for that I will
Steven Carrita
2022-04-26 22:26:08 +0000 UTCI rarely comment, but I truly love rewatching this show with you both. I was an obsessed TNG fan as a teenager and it is such a wonderful, odd experience to fall in love with it all over again as an adult. The Outcast is an episode that I only watched once in my youth and it didn't really make an impression. Now as an adult I find myself tearing up and deeply moved as I watch it. That has happened so many times on this lovely weekly run through - the episodes I barely noticed as a kid are the strongest, most impactful episodes as an adult. Your reactions truly help emphasize that to me. Thanks for being my guides to rediscovering how remarkable and special TNG is. There's nothing else quite like it, not even other Trek shows.
JimmyPea
2022-04-26 20:54:48 +0000 UTCWil Wheaton hosts a Star Trek after show on Paramount Plus. It would be so great if Paula and Katrina could do something with him on Warped. Maybe react with them during a Wesley-centered episode?
Stephen Kronfeld
2022-04-26 20:11:40 +0000 UTCThere might have been interference, but there was also a bit of blindness too. Ira Steven Behr did look at how well DS9 did on tackling various issues of the day in the fan funded DS9 doc. He thought that LGBTQ was an area that they failed to have an impact. Much the same is true for TNG. Almost all of the Berman era Trek series at least tried to address LGBTQ discrimination in an episode or two, but maybe the best thing would have been to just have it in the mix of characters and relationships of the main cast of a show. Anyway, hindsight and all that.
Funny That
2022-04-26 19:46:04 +0000 UTCI always loved that little Picard and Riker moment at the end. Picard couldn't really let him do anything but the suggestion is, he may have been willing to hang around a little longer to help Riker. And even that long pause after Riker says they can leave says so much.
Joe Concepts
2022-04-26 19:39:33 +0000 UTCI can respect Frakes' thoughts on casting, but I think having Soren be a male actor would be a step too far for audiences. And I think it would be sort of dishonest to take a character whose sexuality is well established, and suddenly have him fall in love with "a man." While the scene with Troi could maybe hint at it a bit, this episode's point is not Riker is bisexual. He likes females and Soren is female. There is some growth with Riker still, though, as he's interested in what you would not see as a typical woman, and he also isn't just basing his feelings on looks. In fact, just the fact they did this with "manly man" Riker makes it more impactful. Like if it Geordi, someone who hadn't been very successful with women, it would be a whole different thing to some.
Joe Concepts
2022-04-26 19:30:17 +0000 UTCI always think of this as "The episode where Rikers raw sexuality and horniness starts threatening entire planetary societies and not just the enterprise." Even as a young man watching this show I questioned both Rikers appeal and his self control. His horniness was easily manipulated by the Bynars using the holodeck, he fell in love with an acamarian assassin who threatened their mission, he was so hot an alien blackmailed him for sex to escape her planet, the leader of an all female planet just HAD to have him, Data's new born daughter just HAS to kiss him and an alien uses a sex brain toy to take him over and infiltrate the enterpise. His reputation is such that there is a point when he is on trial for murder of a husband whos wife he seduced, (RAPED????) that his own crewmates seem very unsure if he is innocent. Even as a horny hormone addled teen boy willing to believe almost any male fantasy shown to me on tv or movies at the time I was VERY skeptical of Rikers "appeal" and his crewmates tolerance for it.
John Welch
2022-04-26 19:20:07 +0000 UTCI get your point. I think that's why Soren explains to Riker that there were multiple genders in the planet's history. It did exist in the past, so there was some concept of it. I actually think it makes her story more tragic. There was inherent history where their species was not what it is currently, but they go out of their way to "erase" that, which is also problematic in a completely different way.
DC
2022-04-26 18:40:48 +0000 UTCYes, I think the point of showing that therapy wasn't saying it can work in real life. You're supposed to be disgusted by what they did to Soren, and think how horrible it is they forced that on her.
Joe Concepts
2022-04-26 18:20:54 +0000 UTCThis is a very interesting one. It's especially interesting because while at the time it was really seen as a gay/lesbian themed episode, but now it seems like they were jumping way ahead with transgender issues. I don't think that was their intent but it it fits that even better. I have heard people in the LGBTQ community not liking that no one brought up same sex relationships when talking about gender, but it was still sort of early to explore that. Though it wasn't like unheard of by the 90's on TV. You still wonder could they at the very least have tossed out one line about it, but maybe they had interference when trying to produce it. It still works.
Joe Concepts
2022-04-26 18:19:48 +0000 UTCI feel like in the context of the show the gender identity implications are kind of problematic. In a culture/society where gender identity doesn't exist then how could they "feel" like one gender or another? What does it "mean" to be a man or woman in a society where those very concepts and biology don't even exist? If the implication is that gender identity is ingrained in our DNA then why is it that so many gender norms are predicated on the societal traditions of the sexes?
Adam Brown
2022-04-26 18:16:25 +0000 UTCI know that this episode has had a mixed reception from the LGBTQ+ community, and I understand why, but personally, I think it really works. To address one criticism that I think is just wrong - I've heard people say that it is offensive because it portrays conversion therapy as being successful. To me that is crazy. Yes, it's "successful," in that Soren is successfully brainwashed, but I don't see the "psycho-tectic therapy" being portrayed as anything other than horrible and tragic. One of the others, I think is more valid and that this episode is much more made for straight people than for queer people. And it definitely is, in my opinion. The point of this episode, to me, is to try to get straight people to experience what it feels like to be on the other side of it. And for me, a little adolescent straight kid who, yeah, made insensitive gay jokes, it definitely worked. When this aired back in the early 90s, watching it changed the context for me. It made me think about homosexuality in a way I never had before. And I get that, as a young queer person, this episode might not have been what you wanted or needed. That the "gay" episode was written by a straight person for straight people and Star Trek basically wouldn't touch an actual gay character with a 10 foot pole. And how hurtful that might have felt. But as a straight person, I am personally thankful that I saw this during my formative years and I think it made me a better person.
R. Chang
2022-04-26 18:07:31 +0000 UTCNever been a super big fan of this episode myself. It has a number of... difficult things in it for me. If other people start raving about how good your reaction is, I might watch it, but for now, I think I'm gonna skip this one.
Arek Schneyer
2022-04-26 17:43:55 +0000 UTC
