Dark Water, Gallifrey Gals Get Wibbly Wobbly! S8Ep11
Added 2021-08-12 17:00:05 +0000 UTCPaula finally finds out who Missy really is!! Did she guess it or was it a shock! Watch to find out!
PAULA DEMING
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KATRINA ALYSHA
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Comments
It's interesting to see the complete polor opposite reaction, Clara is my favourite New-Who companion (especially with Capaldi, and granted a lot of that is due to Series 9) but this moment if anything makes her more human to me, especially after the Impossible Girl arc. Maybe It says something about me as a person but I see it as a reasonable reaction to try and trick/blackmail a time traveler into getting your lover back if you'd just lost them and very much loved them and had access to power like that. I know people in my life I'd 100% try to do what Clara did and worse for. I really don't think it helps that danny wasn't written too well and his charecter is pretty flat, it makes this reaction seem very over the top when from a mundane human point of view I think it's entirely understandable if not morally correct.
Benjamin Turpin
2023-12-25 03:45:55 +0000 UTCPaula had my exact same reaction towards clara as i did aftert this i was so done with her
Paul Baldwin
2023-09-19 00:38:29 +0000 UTCIt's funny. I had such a similar reaction to Paula that I skipped ahead past that part of the episode.
PickettsChargingPort
2023-06-29 11:43:11 +0000 UTCBlah blah blah. Moffat is an ass, Heinlein was a fascist and Asimov SA'd openly and proudly. Moffat straight up sucks but not the same.
Chuckleberry Finn
2022-04-04 23:17:06 +0000 UTCIt's funny because I love Peter and his incarnation of The Doctor, but always tell people "season 8 is rough" without being able to articulate why. Paula's reaction these past 2 episodes has made it easier to convey.
Jeff Magaw
2021-08-20 16:31:15 +0000 UTCNot really but o.k
Steven morgan
2021-08-19 02:53:21 +0000 UTCMoffat really shows his generation's toxic treatment towards women. Even going back to Asimov and Heinlein their great works are filled with bigotry, misogyny and racism. When I read them again as an adult, its just so glaring. I'm glad the show has better writing now.
Mr Kitty
2021-08-15 17:50:59 +0000 UTCIn the previous episode, one of the things that made Danny realize Clara was lying to him was that she didn't act like she was hadn't seen the doctor for months, so the timeline does checks out. I also think that Danny relatively calm reaction to finding out she lied, as well as his speech about how ordinary life could be an adventure, are the things that finally made Clara realize he is truly the guy for her
tal goren
2021-08-14 14:51:37 +0000 UTCI've been thinking over this react video - and I have to say I can definitely understand the angle you're coming at for most of it. A few things for the comments first. Just because someone didn't like it, or someone did like it, doesn't make it good writing either. If this episode were a story unto itself without a series history backing it up, I wouldn't have issue with the writing. Because without a history to rely on, the reader can expect that there is a history behind the relationships in the story that they are not privy to, and with good writing they can extrapolate that history based on the part of the relationship that appears in the story - and they can fill it in with their own understanding of how the relationship would have reached that point based on their own lived experiences. But, in this case, we have been shown this relationship's evolution throughout the series from it's inception. As a viewer we should be able to expect that aspects of that relationship which will be the basis of major story points have been shown to us or at least flow naturally from what we have been shown. I think it's perfectly reasonable to think that the writers did not build this relationship in the published material to the point that we are expected to accept that it is at in this episode. We are not asked to merely accept that Clara is willing to lay down her life to be with Danny - this is something that could be seen as hinted at in episode 10 when she chooses to stay on earth with Danny to experience the Solar Flare rather than go into space to experience it in higher safety. We are asked to accept that their relationship is so mutually dependent that Clara is willing to not only lay down her life but to slash and burn the lives of the people around her to stay with Danny. Given that the relationship we were shown is that she would not even stop travelling with the Doctor in order to be with Danny - something she could have easily done without destroying her relationship with him - it seems questionable that she is suddenly at the point where she would not just destroy her relationship with the Doctor, but destroy the Doctor to maintain her relationship with Danny. Is this bad or good writing? That's an entirely subjective thing. To the writer, and to people whose lived experiences flesh out the relationships between Clara, Danny and the Doctor the same way the writer's assume the unwritten parts of the relationship go - this is good writing. To people whose life experiences say that the relationship they've been shown cannot possibly include the assumptions required for the relationship to be where it is at the start of this episode - it's bad writing. To me, good writing would have required less assumptions about the relationship that has been a central point to 10 episodes already and written enough detail that assumptions were not required. That said - while I enjoy these reactions and am onboard 95% of the time, Paula said something during this one that made no sense to me. She said the way the Doctor reacted to Clara's betrayal was completely on point, well written and in character. She then says that the Doctor should not allow Clara to travel with him any longer. These are contradictory statements. If the Doctor's reaction of saying "Do you think I care so little that betrayal could change how I feel about you" is in character - and his going out of his way (disabling security protocols on the TARDIS is a dangerous thing) to try and give her what she wants/needs - is in character, kicking her off the TARDIS for exactly the thing he said couldn't affect if he cared for her would be out of character.
Bill Roland
2021-08-14 01:00:47 +0000 UTCOverall I enjoyed your reaction. I mean Clara isn't my favourite companion and I do agree that she was written a bit poorly in some parts of Series 8. But like some people have said, just because you don't like something doesn't mean it's bad writing?? The fact it was out of character makes it more interesting, if she hadn't acted this way I don't think it would've had the same impact! Plus regarding Danny's death, if he had died an "Ordinary death" so to speak, then it wouldn't of made for good tv, especially in a Sci-Fi/Fantasy tv show?? but, I am looking forward to your next reaction. But on the other hand, there's nothing like some P.Cap humour to cheer you up!!
Daniel French
2021-08-13 19:29:28 +0000 UTCIn my opinion the "little clues" left throughout the season were not enough for me as a viewer. For some people it was. For Paula and I, it was not. There's no other way to express or explain the fact that we all take in media/art in some sort of different way. And to accuse Paula of not understanding emotions when she's quite literally wearing her heart on her sleeve during reactions and being EXTREMELY vulnerable in them.. Doesn't really make sense to me. And we weren't saying that because she lied to him she couldn't be in love with him, people lie to those they love, it happens. But it's difficult to believe when you consistently lie and manipulate those around you, the love you have for that person starts to seem less and less like you care when you choose to consistently go down that path. Especially when you have been given multiple opportunities to rectify that behavior. For a final note, Paula is watching this show for the very first time, she has not had years to sit, rewatch and analyze this show like the rest of us have. Give her some slack as she's expressing her off the cuff, genuine reaction. We just want y'all to understand that we're never gonna hide our feelings towards these shows. We're never gonna give you a slighted, watered down reaction. It's just not who we are. And honestly, we LOVE when people have different opinions and show their perspective on what they feel about what happened in the show. If you pop over to the discord you'll see multiple conversations happening with so many different opinions, disagreements and new perspectives being opened up! Hope this finds you well. - Kat
Time Lord
2021-08-13 18:55:14 +0000 UTCI understand that. I made sure to acknowledge that the comment disappearing may very well be a bug on the site.
Brandon Scott
2021-08-13 17:45:08 +0000 UTCMalcolm, I appreciate your perspective. I would challenge, however, the assertion that I “referred to [Paula’s] option as ‘superficial and egocentric’”. If you’ll read the sentence you’re referring to a little more carefully you’d see that I was clearly referring to all consumers of media like Doctor Who and stating that, “we as an audience” should not treat characters in the stories we enjoy as though our specific perspective is the only one that is valid. That kind of position is, by simple definition, egocentric. It isn’t her opinion that I labeled superficial and egocentric; it is the practice of failing to have an opinion while still allowing for the humanity of the character to exist separate from ones own morals and judgements. I’m not remotely casting dispersions on Paula’s opinions or personal feelings about Clara or her actions. I am simply pointing out that the character’s feelings, motivations and actions aren’t automatically invalidated because she has them.
Brandon Scott
2021-08-13 16:53:53 +0000 UTCI'm not suggesting your comment was deleted btw. Frankly Patron is a buggy mess that seems to just delete comments sometimes, usually when they are long.
Malcolm Wolf
2021-08-13 16:53:39 +0000 UTCWhile you certainly are no where near as bad as some, I suspect that you referring to someone's opinion as "superficial and egocentric" is not quite as respectful and non-attacky as you might like to think it is. In the end Paula reacted with a gut feeling, where she is emotionally invested in the show, and putting those kinds of emotions out there makes one feel vulnerable, which is why it is best to focus on offering different viewpoints instead of suggesting she is flawed for having them. As with most gut reactions, over time with a respectful offering of different views, her opinion might change or at least get a bit more nuance, as unlike us she has not had a lot of time to reflect.
Malcolm Wolf
2021-08-13 16:31:51 +0000 UTCWe have not deleted any comments so I'm unsure of what happened there. - Kat
Time Lord
2021-08-13 15:55:48 +0000 UTC'Just because you don’t like something doesn’t make it bad writing, poor structure or underdeveloped character arcs. It’s absolutely fine to not like it. But as I stated in my magical, disappearing comment, diluting ourselves into believing that it’s bad writing just because we’re not happy with the actions of a character. ' OMG, A MILLION TIME THIS! I feel this comes up a lot, especially in fandom when it comes to Moffat's writing, and it bugs me. I mean, I don't vibe with a lot of RTD's writing myself, for example, but I wouldn't say it was just 'bad writing', it just 'Not Doctor Who for me' or whatever.
Nicole Mazza
2021-08-13 08:39:14 +0000 UTCI didn’t interpret this episode as it wanting to have the viewers think that they should really believe that Clara loves Danny and he’s THE one and only for her. I took it more as that’s what Clara wants to make herself believe because otherwise the guilt of lying to him would be too much for her to handle now that he’s died. Do I believe that Clara and Danny’s love was the same as Amy and Rory? No, of course not. Does Clara want to make herself believe that? Yeah, I think so. Should Clara have gone to the Doctor to ask to bring Danny back? Duh. The thing that I think really got to Clara was the mundane way that Danny died. For someone who has seen all these amazing things and different worlds, I’d imagine it’d feel pretty ironic that someone died in a normal “boring” way.
Crystal D.
2021-08-13 07:16:28 +0000 UTCYup agree, as I say Any wouldn't actually do it, Rory though perhaps he would 😜
Sufyaan Kazi
2021-08-13 06:10:48 +0000 UTCAlright. I’ll just summarize. Just because you don’t like something doesn’t make it bad writing, poor structure or underdeveloped character arcs. It’s absolutely fine to not like it. But as I stated in my magical, disappearing comment, diluting ourselves into believing that it’s bad writing just because we’re not happy with the actions of a character. Characters are people and they do what they do. With the exception of an egregious deviation from their established character, we as an audience have no ownership over their behavior. Trying to take it is both a superficial and egocentric position from which to consume any media. I’ll state again, none of what I said is an attack, personal or otherwise. I hope no offense it taken but if my comment was deleted for just saying what I wrote above… that would be very disappointing. I have been a patron since you launched. I’d hate to think you would arbitration for your right to give your opinions as loudly and angered as you’d like, but if I voice my opinion in a respectful and docile tone my opinions simply get erased. I know there are many reasons my comment may have gotten deleted and I’m not discounting some computer glitch. I hope that was the case. Either way, I’ll be looking forward to your next video.
Brandon Scott
2021-08-13 05:37:40 +0000 UTCI’m sorry, did my comment get deleted?
Brandon Scott
2021-08-13 05:21:11 +0000 UTCI guess it just wasn't clear to me how long they had been dating. And I can't speak for Paula, but I got the impression that it wasn't clear to her either. They didn't show the two of them together enough over the course of the series. It felt like they had been together only a matter of weeks instead of months.
Jeff Seely
2021-08-13 04:52:19 +0000 UTCIf I'd had access to a time machine when my son died I would have killed the owner without remorse in order to bring him back. It's a perfectly believable reaction.
Bob Hughes
2021-08-13 04:39:12 +0000 UTCI don't get how she doesn't trust him. She's been in his time stream, spent real time with 3 incarnations at once and watched him/them make difficult decisions. To me she's the one companion in new Who who should know the Doctor the best so her betrayal hits harder. I felt the same way when she was so skeptical of 12 because he wasn't her Doctor. Obviously not as harsh as this but by the time she WATCHED him regenerate she'd seen his many selves and had meaningful conversations with 3 of him. She was given the privilege of really seeing the Doctor at his most vulnerable. Regeneration, at the time of his assumed death, and making the most painful decision to destroy Gallifrey or save it. Her distrust of the grumpy old man felt like a betrayal at the beginning of the season and this one just reached new lows. I don't hate her as a companion but there are choices the writers made that just don't make sense to me.
Alisa Loudner
2021-08-13 03:40:51 +0000 UTCWonderfully put. I love that you were honest with your opinions and didn’t tiptoe around them. I don’t think you are hating on Katrina or Paula, I do see that you find them entertaining and enjoy their videos and perspectives and have respect for their opinions. I don’t find any of your language offensive or the slithers bit aggressive. I think you expressed yourself in a concise and fair way. Enjoyed the read.
Brandon Scott
2021-08-13 03:27:32 +0000 UTC12 and clara are almost always tied with 10 and donna in my tier list lol
Amanda Logsdon
2021-08-13 03:27:08 +0000 UTCEveryone arguing over which companion to hate….Me: but I love them all, lol
Brandon Scott
2021-08-13 03:23:19 +0000 UTCYes, I think it’s important to acknowledge Colman’s superb acting in her run on the show. She’s amazing.
Brandon Scott
2021-08-13 03:22:06 +0000 UTC12/Clara is my #2 combo too, but I gotta give 1st to 11/Amy.
Brandon Scott
2021-08-13 03:21:10 +0000 UTCI see that too, Scott. One sure sign that someone’s biases are getting in the way of fairly analyzing a situation is when you hear them say something completely reasonable like, “I understand we all do things out of character when we’re grieving” to only then immediately dismiss that fact and shift into harshly judging someone for doing the exact thing that was just established as perfectly normal human behavior. This was a tough one.
Brandon Scott
2021-08-13 03:19:44 +0000 UTCThey were dating for months. They would’ve been right in that sweet spot where you make the decision to commit and you start envisioning your whole lives together. I thought this was perfectly timed. The added feeling of unjustly being robbed of the future you just realized you wanted would only make the grief more unbearable and the react more desperate.
Brandon Scott
2021-08-13 03:13:36 +0000 UTCI understand the arguments or to of, or the point it’s trying to make, but to me it would make zero sense for Amy to do this kind of thing even in the face of losing Rory. Why? Because she and the Doctor had a very different relationship than Clara and the Doctor (and it’s the cause of the Doctor’s actions, not Clara;s). Amy and the Doctor’s relationship was built on trust, respect and unconditional, childlike love. Clara and the Doctor, again because of the Doctors choices early on, has an awful lot of manipulation, dishonesty and temperature-taking at its core. Amy would never do this. For Clara, I think it made perfect sense. Just my opinion. P.S. Paula made that point too, that she reacted so strongly because of how much she loves the Doctor…. Isn’t she the one who, just at the tale end of the last series, called the Doctor an selfish, self centered asshole? Something like that, I may be paraphrasing but I know I got the last word right.
Brandon Scott
2021-08-13 03:06:36 +0000 UTCDeep breath, Paula 😮💨🧘♀️. It’s great to see you emotionally invested in the show, and I love your reactions, but I do feel Clara acted just as her character has been developed. It’s well established that she’s a control freak who found herself in a situation she could have no influence over (Danny’s death), apart from using the Doctor to seize back control. And in her grief she lost all perspective on how that should be achieved and so tried to take control by force. Just a comment on the keys and click of the fingers to open the Tardis - I always found the click to unlock a rather silly Moffat conceit, and people often comment that the Doctor could easily open the Tardis without the keys. However, I like to think that the psychic link is actually with the keys and not the Tardis itself, so if the keys were destroyed he would be locked out. Maybe just head canon, but it fits better for me that way. Glad you weren’t spoiled about Missy. I recall a lot of speculation when the series first aired, including that she might be another Classic Time Lady villain called the Rani. It makes perfect sense that she’s the Master, and the reveal was so perfectly done. Michelle Gomez is a delight in the role, so deliciously evil, and I’m sure Paula will enjoy her. PS. It looks like Sheppard’s attention seeking is demanding his own reaction show/channel. Maybe you could sit him in front of a TV and film him watching cat videos or the like. I’m sure there’d be lots of people who’d watch that. Anyone got any suggestions of shows for him?🙀😾😸
Lloyd B
2021-08-13 02:58:05 +0000 UTCThis makes sense. And let’s be honest, Clara isn’t the first character (in fiction or irl) to handle loss badly and even of royally screw over or horribly mistreat someone they care about because of grief.
Brandon Scott
2021-08-13 02:55:45 +0000 UTCI think the thing I like and agree with the most in this comment is your point of how Clara doesn’t really trust the doctor at this time and the fact that he really hasn’t given her reason to.
Brandon Scott
2021-08-13 02:45:01 +0000 UTCI agree. But to be fair, it’s not just Paula. Katrina has seen these episodes before and still somehow doesn’t seem to recognize how quickly Clara’s feelings developed for Danny. And, just a side note, the notion that she couldn’t have been in love with him because she told lies to hide the double life she was trying to lead is, to me, another instance when I find my self asking if either of them have ever known actual people. (That sounds harsher than I mean it. Don’t come for my throat, lol. I just mean that it’s a common human flaw and a mistake many people make).
Brandon Scott
2021-08-13 02:40:50 +0000 UTCThank you. Well said.
Brandon Scott
2021-08-13 02:36:52 +0000 UTCYES! IT GETS ME EVERY DAMN TIME. 😭😭😭
Nicole Mazza
2021-08-12 23:34:46 +0000 UTCYes, it's great to see the tension between them! Clara is no sycophant and yes, Donna wasn't either, but Donna still would mostly go along with the Doctor at the end of the day -- Clara pushes his boundaries instead. And I just think it's so interesting to watch!
Nicole Mazza
2021-08-12 23:33:31 +0000 UTCScott -- YES, I literally was just about to write this. She's my least fave of all the companions and I mean going all the way back to the beginning with Susan.
Nicole Mazza
2021-08-12 23:31:38 +0000 UTCTHIS! I love the way they did this with Clara. Yes, it was brutal, but I thought it was awesome seeing such a different side to the dynamic between the Doctor and a companion for once. And god, when he says: 'Do you think I care for you so little that betraying me would make a difference?' IT JUST KILLS ME. God, I love Clara and Twelve together. Such a beautifully complex relationship that's not just all sunshine and rainbows! <3!
Nicole Mazza
2021-08-12 23:30:16 +0000 UTCRespectfully, the main issue I have when people go after Clara in this way is that it ignores the fact that the Doctor and Clara are incredibly similar to one another, more so in fact than any other companion/ Doctor relationship. A lot of the issues I see people complain about regarding Clara's personality are things that are front and center in the Doctors personality that people don't have a problem with nearly as much if at all. Imho 12 and Clara are incredibly fun because Clara gives back to the Doctor a lot of the same things he usually gives to his companions, for better or worse. To me the fact that Clara is complicated, counter indicative at times and flawed is what makes her feel relatable and grounded. I do like though how Doctor Who can spur these kinds of debates. Looking forward to your next reaction!
Splashdown
2021-08-12 23:29:49 +0000 UTCDid you meet Rose? Rose has to be be the single worst companions in the history of companions. She is literally the worst one to ever set foot on the show in it's 50+ years.
Scott Archibald
2021-08-12 22:06:18 +0000 UTCThere is nothing out of character or poorly written about a person in deep grief bargaining for their loved one's return. The difference here is, Clara has access to a potential solution for her grief. Clara being written with genuine flaws, that often hinder her growth as a person has always irked a lot of people. I guess for me, it just made me understand her even more. If I lost someone I loved like she did, you better believe I'd make the same mistakes she did in her situation. Not all of us handle grief and depression flawlessly.
MattyIce777
2021-08-12 22:05:43 +0000 UTCTBH Paula's reaction was pretty selfish in itself. She didn't even try to understand what the character was going through. She was obviously going through the 5 stages of grief. We saw denial in the kitchen scene and anger in the dream state. I get the feeling Paula has a hard time following the storylines as the way she felt about Danny was extremely obvious from previous episodes.
Scott Archibald
2021-08-12 22:04:06 +0000 UTCI am so sorry but sometimes Paula's reactions are way to over the top. it is almost like she doesn't actually understand emotions. It makes the reaction seem ...less. It feels like Paula has not even been paying attention to the actual episodes. She missed so many clues from previous episodes about how close and how much she loved Danny. Like seriously, She meets Danny and her's future great great grandchild.
Scott Archibald
2021-08-12 21:52:49 +0000 UTCI wanted to start this by saying that I love your reactions and I love how blunt and honest your reactions are even if I don’t always agree with them, like now with Clara lol. (This is also gonna get long, sorry. i just love Clara.lol) I think that Clara as a character did suffer a lot because Moffat used her character and made her OOC in times to fit a certain plot or arc. I don’t think that she was OOC in this episode but I felt that she def suffered from it in episode 1 when her character was used to represent the viewers who were upset about the doctor being ”older”. With that said what Clara ”did” at the beginning never really bothered me so much because it wasn’t real. She was in a dream state and I think that the dream made everything more dramatic and heightening every emotion. Some of the stuff also made no sense because when it comes to paradoxes and the Doctor not being to enter the TARDIS again I feel like it’s just unrealistic to care about this now after almost 4 seasons of Moffat not caring about this at all. So yeah, I believe that the dream state was to see how far she would go because up til now Clara does not fully trust the Doctor. She doesn’t trust him to help bring back Danny because for all she knows he hates Danny and as her best friend he’s been pretty cruel to her throughout this season and even back as 11. Just in the earlier episodes we had him leave her alone to make this important decision and he lied to her about knowing what was actually going on. He keeps on asking her if he’s a good man because he doesn’t know it himself. He lies to her and keeps things from her but then calls her out when she does the same thing. S8 is very good at showing how alike 12 and Clara, and how good of a Doctor Clara is. And I feel like the reasons why people hate or dislike Clara are the reasons why people love and like the Doctor. I also think that Clara did love Danny in her own way, even if I honestly dislike this pairing and find it very forced, but what she felt when he died was survivor guilt. She does all these scary and dangerous adventures and nothing happens. She sees the Doctor get away with so many dangerous stuff and she keeps being so close to death herself but she keeps on living - the doctor saves her or brings her back. And then Danny gets hit by a car. Like Clara said, it’s boring. Anyways, I’m probably not making much sense but Clara says that she’s owed better and I feel like this is what it’s all about. It’s not her being OOC but her in a selfish and self-centered way thinking she’s owed better by the Doctor - someone she’s saved and pretty much died for. Also Clara is the reason why the Doctor could even regenerate and got more lives. And he keeps on leaving her. He left her twice in the season finale of S7. He left her after he regenerated. He left her in ’kill the moon’. And maybe this is my dislike of how 11 treated Clara but 11 lied to Clara a lot and the way he treated her in their last episode together wasn’t my cup of tea. The Doctor and Clara, esp 12 and Clara, have a very complex relationship because they are so alike and imo I feel like it's a bit harsh to call her the worst companion because she made a very selfish and cruel thing in a dream state after losing someone she loved.
sara
2021-08-12 20:27:39 +0000 UTCYeah, I was done with Clara a while back, after Kill the Moon. By this point I was just jaded. ALSO Katrina... that hair is ON FIRE!
Jonny Moonsliver
2021-08-12 20:10:13 +0000 UTC"writing is really hard" love it!
Paul Mason
2021-08-12 20:01:03 +0000 UTCThe reasons people don’t like clara are the reasons I love her she’s marmite, because she is so human, she’s selfish impulsive, reacts with her emotions all the time, she’s also loving kind selfless and the reason people think she’s is shoehorned is because like most humans there is no build up, Iife just happens, p,s I love Shepard
Steven morgan
2021-08-12 19:47:56 +0000 UTCOne way to help make sense of Clara's actions is to consider that maybe the dream state exaggerates what a person would normally do, and also, perhaps the Doctor wanted to see how far he could push her and so he responded to everything she said in the most provoking way possible. And Clara's actions before the dream state? I explain that as a combination of grief and writing is really hard.
steve glxalphanumerics
2021-08-12 19:40:42 +0000 UTCI don't see this out of character for Clara. She has always been a control freak and wanted to control the Doctor from day one. She handled loss extremely badly, but this is all part of a character arc and growth. I love this finale myself and the Missy reveal is everything! I remember jumping out of my seat at the time
Einar Sigurðsson
2021-08-12 19:37:11 +0000 UTCDOCTOR: This is it, Clara, one of those moments. CLARA: What moments? DOCTOR: The darkest day. The blackest hour. Chin up, shoulders back. Let's see what we're made of, you and I.
Henry from CO
2021-08-12 19:35:23 +0000 UTCSorry, this was a LOT longer than I meant it to be, but here we go anyway..... I'm reminded of a quote from another recent series that dealt with grief, I won't name it in order to avoid spoilers for other Patrons, but I'm sure many will recognise it. It went as follows.... "And you.... you don't hate me?" "Given the chance and given your powers, I'd bring my mum back." You've both said it before, everyone has their own opinion and are equally entitled to them, and I completely understand your reaction, Paula. To me, it actually felt like a more natural response from Clara than straight up despair. To my point, even as far back as "The Time of The Doctor", she is described as "Bubbly personality masking bossy control freak" (her words, not mine). She's argued with The Doctor, chastised The Doctor when he's let her down, and over time learned enough from The Doctor to not only understand his actions (Think Orient Express) but to take the role of The Doctor when needed (Flatline). In normal circumstances, there would be nothing for her to do but grieve, however given she has the Tardis at her disposal, is it really that surprising that she'd look for a way to force him to do something that she knows he'd never say yes to? Also, consider the much quoted 5 stages of grief. We saw her in denial, standing in the middle of the road at the memorial, but even in her talk with her gran, it was apparent she was still in the 2nd stage, Anger. With her level of intelligence, she already knows bargaining is basically pointless, so instead, she clung onto anger even whilst attempting to bargain. Then, of course, as soon as The Doctor moved to reclaim control by telling her to do as she was told, she moved to reclaim that control by changing the rules (throwing 5 keys at once, effectively removing any chance for The Doctor to regain control). Control is a chess game to these 2, it always has been (Think Robots of Sherwood). After she learned about the vision and knew she had lost, she moved straight past bargaining and onto depression for just a few scenes before shenanigans ensued and we never reached acceptance. My point is that to me, her actions actually seemed pretty natural for her character,and his understanding and acceptance seemed just as understandable. That all said and done, there is one reason I did feel like this was somewhat over the top for her character. I never really felt like there was any real chemistry between Clara and Danny, not a fraction of what Amy and Rory had, and for that reason alone her actions didn't gel with her character for me.
Darren Withers
2021-08-12 19:35:00 +0000 UTCKatrina, love your short hair 😍 Paula, sorry you had to witness this 'plot point contrivance' which was the way Clara was written in this episode. In fact it extends to the whole Clara/Danny saga I think, she behaved so out of character the entire series with both Danny and the Doctor in this episode. I love Moffat but agree with you both, it was only saved by the great lines Capaldi was given and the reveal of Missy. I almost think the way you react just shows how much you love the Doctor and how much you appreciate Capaldi too in the skin of the Doctor. Personally I think stuff in future episodes redresses the Clara balance, but let's not spoil anymore 👍🏼 p.s. agree on Any and Rory, their love for each other was much more believable to 'justify' Clara's reaction (not that Amy would do it, Rory perhaps) but Clara and Danny weren't quite there yet
Sufyaan Kazi
2021-08-12 19:19:14 +0000 UTCThis is the episode I've been waiting for this entire series. The big Missy reveal! It might seem strange at first glance, but we never saw the Master die in the 10th Doctor's final episode. It's conceivable that he survived and found his way back from Gallifrey. I completely understand Paula's point of view on Clara. I agree that there needed to be more buildup for Clara to go nuts the way that she did. I got the impression that she was in the early stages of a romantic relationship with Danny Pink, not that he had become the great love of her life. So the way she treated the Doctor didn't make much sense to me either. I will say that it is in keeping with Clara's character for her to be calculating when dealing with the Doctor, but that level of betrayal just wasn't earned. That said, I find the Doctor's reaction to Clara completely believable. His line about Clara's betrayal not making a difference when it comes to his love for her might be my favorite single line in all of Doctor Who. Back to Missy... I love this incarnation of the Master. Michelle Gomez is a delight to watch.
Jeff Seely
2021-08-12 18:55:55 +0000 UTCRose doesn't know him well at that point though and neither does the audience. The toughest thing about using Clara for this storyline is that she knows him better than basically anyone and still doesn't trust him here,,, Its tough because the Doctor changes, which is what makes him compelling. But then do we trust him to the same degree when all the goofy eccentricity is gone and he just acts cruel?? His identity crisis should inform her choices but that's not well elaborated.
George Baxter
2021-08-12 18:54:29 +0000 UTCI don't think Clara in this episode is any worse than Rose in series 1.
Stephen Ray
2021-08-12 18:50:58 +0000 UTCI agree. Its a big swing for Clara to try and blackmail the Doctor but if anything it shows how well she does know him; at least she knows he would never voluntarily twist time like she wants. But its also true that she doesn't trust this Doctor. I know that Paula and Kat love 12 (as do I) but from Clara's perspective she's seeing him go through a crisis of faith and be cruel. He keeps questioning his own morality and that does make her question him. Ultimately I just don't feel as personally betrayed as Kat and Paula seem to. Did they set up that Clara loved Danny? Well she said as much in episode 6 and he's been regularly featured throughout the season. At a certain point I think its fair to assume she loves him, or at least believes that she does.
George Baxter
2021-08-12 18:43:13 +0000 UTCI could literally feel my eyes sparkling like a freaking anime character!!! Hahaha - Kat
Time Lord
2021-08-12 18:34:32 +0000 UTC12/Clara is my second fav pairing, behind 10/Donna! 🧡
Firefly24601
2021-08-12 18:29:42 +0000 UTCBut Paula, how do you really feel? Ive been looking forward for a long time to see how you both reacted this one - you guys did not disappoint! Kat's eyes literally sparkled waiting for Paula to react... loved it and love you both!
Mark Ten
2021-08-12 18:26:26 +0000 UTCI understand why she reacted that way honestly. The Doctor does have a time machine and has changed time with Clara present constantly. Clara had been established as a 'control freak' to use the Doctors words and she had no control over Dannys death so she overreacted. On the other hand, she couldve just asked him for help.. he wouldve said no and then she couldve done this and that wouldve made more sense but she did seem to just get cold to the Doctor out of nowhere. It goes back to Kill The Moon and how she reacted to being put in an impossible situation, this one she was directly affected and she just snapped.
DeathSwitch
2021-08-12 18:17:17 +0000 UTCWhile I think Paula's reaction is absolutely fair, I do want to make one small comment. And that is that Clara acts in character. The whole season we've seen her lie to Danny and try to control the situation so that she gets to do what she wants without interference. Here she's doing the same thing she's just doing it to the Doctor because now he's the one who can give her what she wants. Totally agree about it not being earned. For me it's something that's annoying that I forgive because of what comes next and I love the drama of it and the Doctor's reaction. But I can get how it's something not everyone can get over.
Paul Mason
2021-08-12 18:15:48 +0000 UTCOh come now, while I might agree about Adric, I actually like Tegan! Maybe I just have a soft spot for "gobby Australians", as 11 once said.😀
Lloyd B
2021-08-12 18:14:59 +0000 UTCThe way Clara reacted to Danny's death, it totally works for me. Guilt plus death can make people do strange strange things. And when you have a friend who has the technical ability to undo that pain... Like Kat and Paula said, that doesn't make what she did RIGHT, but it seems totally within the scope of the character and situation to me. Kat and Paula disagreeing with that is absolutely ok! The way Moffat wrote their relationship was a bit strange, and more overt, on-screen commitment from Clara towards Danny definitely would have made Clara's response to her grief more realistic. Also, HAPPY BIRTHDAY KATRINAAAA!!!!!
Firefly24601
2021-08-12 18:14:41 +0000 UTCThat beginning is rough, but it's so fun watching reaction videos to this episode. EVERY door. EVERY logo. That description of what holds the bodies together. There are SO many clues, and we all missed them the first time. Watching someone miss them all is so satisfying. Like I'm finally in on the joke...
Doug C
2021-08-12 18:13:30 +0000 UTC" Do you think I care for you so little that betraying me would make any difference" One of my all time favourite Capaldi lines
Sufyaan Kazi
2021-08-12 18:13:07 +0000 UTCSad to hear Paula dislikes Clara so strongly after one bad choice 😭 she was/is my favorite companion
Grelk
2021-08-12 18:07:46 +0000 UTCI agree clara acted beyond selfishly mostly i think due to the guilt she felt over treating danny the way she did, but in a weird way thats why i liked her character, it was so different to what we have seen before. She is still my favorite companion to watch with the doctor, its an interesting dynamic.
Amanda Logsdon
2021-08-12 18:02:07 +0000 UTCWell that was certainly a reaction...
Brendon Waldron
2021-08-12 17:59:43 +0000 UTCIn my opinion this season is one of the most uneven, with some great episodes mixed in with some terrible ones. But when it comes to this episode, they were more efficient, combining some great parts (the cyberman reveal, the Missy identity reveal) with some terrible parts (Danny Pink, Clara at her worst written). It's funny, because Katrina started out disliking Clara and has grown to like her more with the rewatching, and I actually really liked her first time I saw this season and now I find it easier to see the flaws. Not in the acting - Jenna Coleman is doing a brilliant job with what she's given. But the writing is really doing her a disservice, exceeded only by the crimes the writers are committing against Danny Pink.
Eytan
2021-08-12 17:55:32 +0000 UTC"Worst companion." I'm sorry, but have you met Amy Pond? 😁 Or Tegan Jovanka, or Adric, but I know you haven't seen them yet, because they're really horrid Classic Who companions. As usual, I blame Moffat for all of this. He seems to love making Clara completely OOC when he feels she can push the storyline forward, instead of finding a way to do it without making a character OOC. Either laziness or his manchild need to make things "bigger" or "cooler" or whatever, I don't know.
Scribbles
2021-08-12 17:35:47 +0000 UTCAh, time for the reveal ... Missy is really Michelle Gomez. I knew it all along.
Henry from CO
2021-08-12 17:26:04 +0000 UTCI feel like I have been waiting forever for this episode, for all me and Katrina disagree on Clara we share the same love for Missy. Also one of my favourite lines this episode: "I don’t deserve a friend like you." "Clara, I’m terribly sorry but I’m exactly what you deserve.”. Also I don't think Clara's actions were out of character, this entire season we have seen how much of a control issue she has mixed with her impulsiveness throwing the tardis keys into lava even though the doctor could still enter regardless is a very her way to react. She knows how he operates which means she knows how he manipulates people and thus how she can manipulate him. I think it isn't fair to call her the worst companion because of that. Just because she does something bad doesn't make her a bad character. If anything I think it adds to her complexity. Every companion in new who blindly follows the doctor until they end up dead or with their life ruined. Clara being just as dangerous as the doctor is what makes their relationship the most interesting dynamic. The Doctor is finally experiencing a small amount of the bullshit his companions go through but even then he will never understand the full scope because he is ultimately always in control. I feel it is just a very juvenile surface level read of Clara's character to think that just because she isn't the best person and is 12s companion she doesn't deserve to travel with him. 12 spent most of the season insulting her and her relationship with Danny and endangering the lives of her students. Neither of them are perfect people, but at the end of the day they both want to save the world and that is why they travel.
Valkyrie
2021-08-12 17:20:26 +0000 UTC
