The Angels Take Manhattan, Gallifrey Gals Get Wibbly Wobbly! S7Ep5

Moffat is a narcissistic emotionally manipulative bastard. He clearly feeds on people's emotions, and must be a nightmare to be around, like a emotional vampire. His method of writing is a product of toxic generations. Drama can be achieved in more productive positive ways. Thankfully the future of the show is moving forward out of the Moffat Dark Ages. Hopefully we'll all get to be on that journey with you!

Mr Kitty

I know a lot of people hate this story, but I actually like it. Is it the best send-off for Amy and Rory? Maybe not. But at least they didn't die and lived their life out together -- which is better than what happened to some companions. As for Moffat's 'emotional manipulation', I didn't really mind it, personally. Honestly, I think it was MUCH more of an issue in RTD era (as several people said before -- like Ten's fake-out regeneration, for example), myself, but it's also a common thing in modern TV drama. 🤷‍♀ P.S. Also, like many others, I knew going in that this would likely be the last story for the Ponds, so while I cried at them leaving -- as I've loved the Moffat companions the most in the 'new' series -- I didn't feel blindsided. I suppose, as others said, that's the downside of being a reactor going in cold -- you don't have those spoilers beforehand.

Nicole Mazza

I'm not gonna lie, I wanted to give Katrina a big hug at the end of this episode. (she looked so sad) This episode crushed me, I'm surprised I didn't tear up this time I watched it, even though many other times I have. I mean this is even before what may very well be the best episode of Modern Dr. Who... spoilers

DarkAshtar

It's one of the things that ruins the rewatch value of Smith's run to me. Amy and Rory constantly being the companion in danger and the old fake death switcharoos all the time. I feel Moffat tried to shock too much using Rory and Amy in situations whereas RTD had a lot more shock at the situations the people of the time we visit are in. There are huge mental manipulations too but they're few and far between compared to the amount of time's Rory and Amy are always in fake danger and it lessens the impact when they do go out because we're tired of the melodramatic "no don't die" type storylines when they've been played out. Moffat put Rory and Amy in immediate danger alone together a lot more than you would see with Rose, Martha and Donna who had interesting side characters to interact with when they were in danger.

Paul Kerley

I could not disagree with that statement any harder. As an empath, my emotions are always involved when I'm watching a show. Especially if they've done a good job at making me care about the characters. Paula had an emotional reaction because her and I are very similar in that sense. She is also an empath who feels things so fully. I think it's what makes watching shows and movies so enjoyable. I can't imagine watching entertainment without having any emotions involved. I hope this helps you understand our perspective a little more! - Kat

Time Lord

Just subscribed for the first time after watching this reaction on YouTube. There's a lot of reaction stuff out there, but you're just on a completely different level. I really appreciate the passion you have for the shows and the characters that leads to reactions like this, even when my opinion is different I can always respect where you're coming from.

Sephsekla

I've been watching since the 70s, Ian, and where not old. Age is just a number. I refuse to let the world and society tell me, just because my age is a certain number, I'm old. Just food for thought. 😁

Amy Chlebus

I really do not understand people getting upset at shows or characters. It's fiction, not real life. Emotions should not even be involved in watching a show at all.

Scott Archibald

I also love this comment ^^^ <3 - Kat

Time Lord

I love this comment ^^^ - Kat

Time Lord

It's fascinating to me to watch different peoples' reactions to this, and neither of yours either surprised or bothered me. I'll admit that as much as I sobbed my little heart out, I LOVED the twist (which I think says a bit too much psychologically and I should mention to my therapist), so watching other people despise it is both confusing and interesting. But Paula, as much as you kept apologizing for how you were feeling and emoting, it is YOUR channel. While swearing doesn't bother me, I recognize that you don't do it a lot on this channel and so I understand that one. But you never EVER have to apologize for feeling strongly and telling us how you feel. Both of you are very good at expressing your opinions and acknowledging that other people may not agree and that it doesn't make either wrong, just different. It's why I appreciate your channel so much (and as I said on Twitter recently, you have RUINED me for many other DW reactors that I try to start up these days. I've only successfully added one out of about twenty I've tried in the last month because I no longer have patience for people declaring things are stupid or badly done rather than 'I didn't like that' etc. Take your break, be well, and know we aren't going anywhere.

Bekah

Paula, we have been waiting for this, and both of you did not disappoint. This is why we watch you two watch. It is so good to see passion - in what ever form, tears are just as passionate as frustration. Mof, can be a sod, I love his writing, but RTD is still the daddy, and Mof would be the first to admit that.

Matt

I think all us fans who know Doctor Who, knew this was gonna be a tough one. I too was very angry watching this. Really shows the problem Moffat has in his writing, even though it's worse in Sherlock.

Jonty Q Wright

It shows precisely how invested in DW you are with this reaction. I'd prefer this reaction to apathy or the constant trivial critiques that, this or that is stupid or these character decisions don't make sense. Or this story is silly. That I've seen from others over multiple series. (When they are watching a show about an alien who sniffs and licks their away through time and space. In a box that is as iconic as it is out of place. Which also just so happens to be alive with reverse internal external dimensions.) Which has made me wonder at times why those reactors are even continuing making reactions to the show. But like you, at least these are their honest responses, whether I agree or disagree with their superficial analysis whilst often missing much of the deeper subtext. So on reflection. Showing you care enough to get angry at the writer. Who used their talent to make you traverse the multitude that is the emotional spectrum and have complex emotions about a TV show. I'd suggest you don't hate Steven in this moment. But rather you disliked that the writers and the other cast and crew made you have a complex negative feeling about a show that you ultimately love. 👍🏻

Daryl

Paula, I get it. This was not the way I wanted Amy and Rory to go out. I hope you don't quit the show. There are so many great, fun episodes yet to come. Some of my personal favorite stories are in your future. Some frustrating things too, but the good outweighs the bad. Anyway, love you gals. Keep it up.

Jared Abrahamson

Commenting as I watch it: - Paula: "Am I gonna cry in this episode?" Katrina: *looks directly at the camera* - Paula at the start of the episode: "Byeee. I'm never gonna get back here." Oh, you sweet summer child. - Paula: "Steven Mofffat, you better fucking behave in this episode." Ehm .... - Graveyard scene at the end. Paula not sure if it's really happening. Katrina starts blubbering. I start blubbering. Paula's face just showing this mix of anger and sadness. - Paula's long and well-deserved rant. I just so want to give you a hug!

Ka Man Chan

I really don’t get Paula’s anger at the ending. Rory basically outright says that jumping off the building probably won’t actually kill him. You weren’t really meant to think they’d be dead after that. Then there’s the recurring graveyard bit through the episode. I don’t even actually know what Paula means by “let them have their story.” As for emotionally manipulating the audience, that’s just what drama is. I definitely don’t see it as being disrespectful. Honestly, I think having that reaction to a plot point is more of a Paula thing than a Moffat thing

Jobard

I think I might be in the minority here, but I actually really like this episode. I guess I see it less as emotional manipulation and more as just making it emotional. And I think most TV is emotional manipulation, that's what getting invested in storylines is. And I kinda like the emotional parts, especially when they make it big like that. I'm not judging your reactions at all, this is just mine :) Also, apparently by the time they filmed the letter scene, Karen and Arthur had already left, and Karen insisted on coming back to read that there during the scene

Anna Hunt

I'm sorry, Rose was allowed to be its thing? We're gonna pretend like RTD didn't bring her back to get her Doctor-copy just for feels? XD

Opti_Frog

I think the reason I don’t mind having my emotions manipulated by Moffat is that I am an old-school Classic Who fan, having watched since 1980. TBH, that show only got me in the heartstrings once, when they killed off a companion. I love the show, don’t get me wrong, but more in an affectionate way than emotionally. So, the fact that I weep a LOT on the New Who is refreshing and welcome. Just my take!

Kathy A

I’ve been watching Doctor Whi isn’t the early 80’s (damn I’m old) but I’ve seen the highs and lows, got angry a few times, not always agreed with the choices people have made but I have always stuck with it and to this day hasn’t been overly disappointed with that choice. There are so many great stories to come (in this season and beyond) that I know you will love Paula :) stick with it and a reward will soon come lol.

Ian Morris

This is so so weird.. Katrina who seen this episode a few times, crying more, Then Paula does who never seen it before.. And then at the end has a Angry/Mad Rent, which i can understand ofcourse.. but still.. anyway ladies love your reactions so much, and i hope you wont quiet watching Paula..

R.BGames37

The word for the day is "Fuck."

John

The point is not that the doctor cant go back to them necessarily, its that they can never leave. To do so would create another paradox that would obliterate new york, as Amy and Rory's deaths have been set as fixed points.

Hoppykwins

Gotta say Paula's Moffat impersonation is pretty spot on, and completely agree with her. Enjoy the break, and I look forward to the next vid. :)

Larry Viscarra

The advantage of watching these shows cold, without all the media hype about the comings and goings of cast members is that you have no idea what’s coming. The disadvantage is that you’re not aware of the media hype about the comings and goings of cast. Watching this as it aired we all knew at the beginning of the season that both Amy and Rory would be leaving, most likely midway through, and the mid season break at episode 5 was the obvious time it would happen. So we were prepared. I found it emotional, but not upsetting, and felt at least they had a good life together. I see what Paula is saying, though, and feel she may have issues with some of the treatment of story arcs and characters in the next couple of series.

Lloyd B

I was pissed as well when I watched it. the writing here is beyond manipulative, it's was just plain lazy. in season 6 the doctor managed to bypass the paradox of the ponds watching him die, by letting them see a fake version of that event. it should have been considerably easier to pull something like this here where the only 'proof' for the ponds death was their names written over a grave. and even if we accept that for some reason the ponds had to live the rest of their lives in the past, there is still no reason that the doctor couldn't visit them there. after all, River obviously dropped by with her book later on. eventually, I learned that during season 7, Moffat was under a lot of pressure due to the upcoming 50th anniversary, and that kind of made the laziness of this plot, more forgivable, but at the time I almost quit the show because of it.

tal goren

This episode is an example of why I say Doctor Who is best watched on a CRT television. Can be very therapeutic to just chuck the whole thing across the room from time to time.

Greg Schuster

Yes, I fully agree with you. Of course, Paula's entitled to feel however she wants to, but it does feel misplaced. On the subject of manipulation, that's just the nature of writing. Literally every writer that's ever written a piece of fiction is trying to manipulate you into feeling a certain way. I personally think Moffat is really good at emotional manipulation. In this episode alone, he gives you the dread of losing two characters, but then gives you a brief moment of reprieve. The calm before the storm. Paula mentioned having something in there that suggested that something wasn't quite right, but we did have that: it was the grave stone. It's okay to feel tricked; in fact, you should feel tricked because you were. I just feel like it's strange to feel legitimate anger towards the writer for it because you're essentially angry with him for doing his job well. ETA: I don't think Moffat's trick in this episode is intended to be malicious towards the audience in any way, which is how Paula seemed to perceive it. Like you said, misdirection is a very common occurrence in writing. Again though, Paula can feel how she wants to. I just don't see it the same way she does.

Jacob D'Amour

I knew Paula was to be angry at this, but I personally love Moffat. I actually like him a lot better than RTD and the current one we have. If she doesn't like this, then she's not gonna like Capaldi's run, at least not the 1st year, and that's a shame because I love his era.

Amy Chlebus

Robert Hill

I think she could give vulcans a run for their money when the need arises

Colin 3of5

I gotta say I did not see Paula's reaction coming! I've lost count of the different times i've seen reactors handle this episode, but this was certainly different and stands out. I don't think apologies are necessary, I don't necessarily agree with everything Paula said but that is the joy of watching these reactions, its to see and take in these things. It was very visceral and real that's all we want. I think a lot of people in the comments already posted have hit the nail on the head pretty well. Nearly the entire UK audience knew the Ponds were leaving. It was announced so far in advance, and the BBC have always been really sucky with spoilers (and carried on long after this episode). We the audience knew they were leaving so spent the entire episode asking how, it wasn't really a matter of when. I think that is where the misdirection comes in, it was one of the few ways suspense could be built and some mystery added it. There is probably an argument that this should have been considered for people watching after but as someone who watched it when it aired it was hard to feel cheated. A lot of Moffat fans do sometimes make excuses for his somewhat questionable story telling choices and I am a HUGE Moffat fan, but not everything he does is perfect (seriously the statue of liberty thing was absurd) and there are some really questionable plot beats in this episode. I think he picked emotion over plot which for Amy and Rory I'll take because they really were beloved companions and goodbyes are always tough and heart wrenching, but I do fully understand the criticisms of this episode. Still a hell of a goodbye to personally two of my favourite companions however. I really hope you stick with it Paula, I'm really enjoying your journey. Also MASSIVE props to Kat for holding it together for as much of this episode as she could, it must have been so hard being perky in the opening!!

Daniel Reynolds

Ah what an episode to come back onto pattern for😂 I do agree. Screw moffat but that music when Amy and Rory are falling always brings me to tears. Both when it first aired and everyone since including this time.

george waterman

Paula is definitely valid in her anger at Moffat. I had a similar reaction my first watch, it actually took me a few months to come back to finish the series since 1. I was still mourning the loss of Amy and Rory and I couldn't fathom the thought of the show without them, and 2. the anger towards the writer was still burning hot. Even to this day, I typically can't jump right in after this episode. No matter how many times I watch this episode, those last 15-ish minutes are an emotional gut punch. I was right there with Katrina emotion-wise. Amy and Rory's deaths are those that every time I see them edited in fan videos or I hear the soundtrack, I start bawling like a baby. Katrina's facial expressions all throughout this series when we were foreshadowed that it was leading towards this were definitely more controlled than mine would have been.

Kbex

😀😀😀

Colin 3of5

Has anyone checked on Moffat since Paula watched this episode? With that look in her eyes, I'm kind of afraid for his safety.

Bruce Bromley

Yes, exactly. With the BBC spoiling events well in advance of the series opening, Moffatt had to pull out all the stops. Just like RTD did with his surprise regeneration of 10. Otherwise there's no suspense at all. Given the tendencies of the BBC publicity department, it's a wonder show runners can surprise us at all.

Stephen Ray

That was about the 4th time I've watched that episode since 2012 and it is still feels like I've been slammed in the gut with a sledgehammer. I know Moffat can appear to be malicious but I don't believe that, I do believe that he gets lost in the ins and outs, ups and downs of the story and he can arrive at the end where despite the sorrow and pain that we feel it would wrong to finish the story any other way. Paula, you rant, rave curse and cry all you need to do. We've just lost two people who we let into our hearts as we watched their epic no l mean their EPIC love story as it ranged over millennia of time and multiple universes. And now they're gone. You rage girl, you yell at the universe and let it know how angry you are. Kat I don't know how you held it together, I, and I expect everyone else saw you tearing up during the power of three, let alone during this episode, power to you Kat

Colin 3of5

Oh man I was WAITING for this episode. Go off, Paula.

LaRoy Murrell

I remember this episode vividly. I didn't like it - I still don't - but I didn't feel tricked, because as others have said, at the time it was known this would be the goodbye episode for the Ponds. I'm pretty sure it was even advertised as such. So taken in context that's not the issue. What is the issue for me is how badly plotted the ending is. The Doctor has a time machine. Why can't he just visit the ponds? And if they like their new life better, great. But the hand-wavy explanations why not - that don't make sense when you consider plenty of other interactions he has - just felt cheap to me. Also, one thing that I find few people mention (not sure if Paula/Katrina did because I haven't watched their reaction yet) but struck me - the Ponds ended up in the 1930s and lived through in New York for at least another 50 years. Melody Pond regenerated in Manhattan in early 1970, and didn't show up again until the late 90s in England when she seems to have regenerated again (since otherwise the ages don't match) You'd think that Moffat could have put that into the episode - "we can't go back to you because we need to wait for Melody so we can raise her" would have been an excellent coda and made so much more sense both story-wise and emotionally. But it was never mentioned (though it might have come up in spin-off media, I dont follow that).

Eytan

So many times that I hear people rail against this episode (much in the way that Paula does here), all I hear is someone who is upset at a story that makes them feel more than they are comfortable with. Some of the points just don't make sense. "Let them have their story"? What does that even mean. Their story is their story and this is how it ends. I understand the anger (which seems to be entirely fueled by pain). Believe me. I understand. I guess what I'm trying to say (and please take what I'm saying with love and care as this is the spirit in which I am typing them), what I'm trying to say is that this episode hurts. Surely, it hurts. But this knee-jerk sort of reaction with so much vitriol (not just from Paula but from several people I've witnessed see this) really, really feels like a boat-load of misplaced pain. Yeah, this one really hurt. But laying it on the writer and saying "let them have their story..." I really don't understand what that means. I'm a writer. And like I said, their story is their story. "Allowed to be their thing..."?? I don't understand. "You don't need to trick me." She says but it just makes no sense. "Tricking" your audience is actually called misdirection and its done ALL THE TIME in pretty much every show or film series in existence. I just don't understand. It feel like pure emotion. Which is fine, as long as we can acknowledge it. Either way, I'm sorry Paula's so upset. I hope she's able to find her way back to a balanced place in regards to this show.

Brandon Scott

This was a mid-season finale, so it's not like it was a huge surprise that something big happened, just like the mid-season finale in series 6. They had also announced who the new companion was going to be after the break. Moffatt wasn't being a complete dick, he was trying to give them a decent sendoff.

Stephen Ray

To be a tiny bit fair to Moffat (just a tiny bit)... when this aired, everyone already knew that the Ponds were leaving. So I don't think Moffat was trying so much to trick people whether or not the Ponds were leaving, it was the manner and timing (within the episode) of their departure. So people at the time knew without a doubt that the Ponds would not be back after this episode, and he wrote with that in mind. His tricks are still kinda shitty at times, and not knowing that the Ponds were leaving would DEFINITELY exacerbate that kind of reaction. I think Eric from Blind Wave had a fairly unemotional reaction to their departure; for a while he didn't really believe they were gone, because Rory came back so many times. So Moffat's deaths do suffer from "crying wolf" a lot.

Firefly24601

I think Paula missed the first shot of The gravestone and it hadn’t changed when when they arrived back in the graveyard, that was the indication that it wasn’t over yet.

WhoIamisme

This episode really shows how unhealthy and toxic the Doctor and River's relationship is. The very idea that the Doctor's behavior convinced River that she should injure herself just to keep him...well..."happy" is the wrong word, I suppose. "Mollified"? I dunno. It's just deeply disturbing and makes me wonder about Moffat's mindset. It kind of makes my irritation at him using regeneration energy as some sort of healing magic to fix other people, and the ridiculousness of the Statue of Liberty ever not being looked at long enough to make it all the way across the city pale in comparison. On the plus side, the acting in this episode is superb. Matt Smith kills it in this.

Scribbles

Remember that cliffhanger in season 4 of the Davies era when the Doctor regenerated but in the next episode he was fine? Or Tennant’s last episode when he survives the Timelords only for Wilf to knock on the glass?? My point is Davies was just as emotionally manipulative as Moffat. Having said that, I don’t like this episode but mainly because of the plot contrivances...

George Baxter

I can't wait to watch this. Sorry, paid work. I'm taking a (very short) vacation. "Am I going to cry?" I spit out my popcorn when she said that.

Stephen Ray