UNCUT REACTION - Star Trek TNG S1E4 - Code of Honor
Added 2023-10-13 15:01:00 +0000 UTC
Comments
Alright. This one. Once universally accepted as the worst/most offensive ep of TNG. Even if you consider other eps worse, it usually didn't come with accusations of racism. So is Code of Honor racist? Probably, in some ways. A number of comments have made convincing arguments to that effect, most of which I knew. It certainly seems the director was pretty overtly racist, hence his being fired. AFAIK the assertion the ep is racist dates back to the production, and that was almost 40 years ago, so I'd hardly call it a result of modern woke PC sensitivity. I'd agree all that stuff has gotten rather ridiculous in recent years, and these days there's more and more pushback on the need to label EVERYTHING and EVERYONE some kind of ist or phobe. Still, people in general tend to overcompensate for things. I think a lot of people today have this kneejerk position that basically nothing is racist, which is equally ridiculous. Like sure, everyone would agree the episode was racist if Picard, Data and Riker beamed down with phasers and pitchforks while wearing KKK costumes and lynched Lutan, but that's cartoonishly overt. Obviously even in 1987, and especially on a show meant to be fairly progressive like Trek, you'd never even get a script like that in the door. According to the cast, director Mayberry was pretty clearly racist. Nobody should believe them because they're actors, but they should be believed because they were actually there, whereas I for example wasn't even born yet. If he was trying to insert his prejudices into the episode as it seems was the case, he'd obviously need to do it subtly(what today would be called "dog whistles"), and even then it cost him his job. Les Landau finishing the production likely further diluted the appearance of racism in the final product, but there's definitely some hints of what went on in the production left. Without knowing the background info, I'm not surprised it can go over people's heads. Was the script INTENDED to be racist. No, I don't think so. Perhaps a little ignorant, or loaded with stereotypes, but the original plan for lizard samurai would probably not have garnered the same negativity. I also wonder if that idea reached the planning stage and the design got recycled for the Selay a few eps later. At any rate, regardless of how much or how little people think the episode is racist, I've never been inclined to defend it because it's still a pretty cringe episode. I hate these stories where there's a clearly backward culture still killing themselves in ritual duels on a planet that's clearly being held back in it's role in the galaxy by the same, and representatives of the federation(one of the most advanced and peaceful societies in this part of the galaxy) need to show up and act like they're so impressed by their customs. Like at the end when Hagon says they excel in technology but not civilized behavior. Like bitch, this dude tried to get his wife killed for personal profit, after kidnapping my security chief to accomplish that, and you talk about being civilized? Gimme the vaccine and fuck off. Also after they get the vaccine that's so critically needed, and which they've already had a serious delay in getting, they can only muster warp 3 to deliver it? Also rather stupid is how selectively the law seems to be applied. So when they thought Yareena was dead, that dissolved their marriage, and he should therefore have inherited her property. But when it's found out she's alive still, somehow that voids the property transfer, but not the dissolution of their marriage?? Make it make sense. Finally, Kathryn Powers who wrote this episode would be involved years later with another sci fi property. Stargate SG1. In a REMARKABLY similar scenario she would write an almost identical episode for that show which aired a couple months shy of a decade later. There were obviously differences. The culture in question were Mongols, not Africans. Cpt. Carter(also a short haired blonde who can fight) was abducted and sold to the tribe leader in an attempt to buy his daughter's hand in marriage, vs Yar being abducted to assassinate Lutan's wife to gain her lands. Carter also fights the chieftain, vs Yar fighting Lutan's wife. In both cases the antagonist winds up humbled while the girl gets the man she really wanted; Hagon for Yareena, and the chieftain's daughter got the boy she wanted to marry instead of being married off in a political exchange. Both were also the second episode after a 2 part pilot, and both are widely regarded as the worst episodes of their respective shows. I'd say that's a case of history very much repeating, not just rhyming. EDIT - Couple other things. I'm a bit surprised that not one covid joke was made given how many times vack-sceene was uttered. And 2, I noticing a lot of the music cues in these early eps are very TOS like, in addition to a couple sets as you pointed out.
Timothy Nikiforovs
2024-06-15 05:52:04 +0000 UTC“Vulcan has no moon Miss Uhura” -direct quote from Spock TOS.
Chris S.
2024-06-14 15:14:17 +0000 UTCIf there's a trek race that should be all black, it's vulcans. They have 3 suns, dammit
Timothy Nikiforovs
2024-06-14 08:41:16 +0000 UTCWhat device are you using? If you’re using a computer, it’s recommended to use Google Chrome
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-04-05 03:57:16 +0000 UTCWhy does the video constantly freeze? Doesn't happen on YouTube
GeorgeReevesSupermanFan
2024-04-05 03:26:26 +0000 UTCYeah, likely. We can assume. We can't know definitely, so we're left with giving people the benefit of the doubt
James Bottas
2023-10-27 17:36:33 +0000 UTCSo the people that where actually there in person and involved …what they think could not have less relevance to you? Ya sorry but thats the most closed minded thing ive heard in a long time. Good bye
Derek Orr
2023-10-27 05:05:09 +0000 UTCYes I too was surprised. When I rewatched the series last year this was one I skipped. I really enjoyed the way they got out of several dilemmas all at once at the end. Very clever.
David Scudder
2023-10-27 03:07:36 +0000 UTCWhat they think could not have less relevance to me. I have a mind and free will.
David Scudder
2023-10-27 03:03:41 +0000 UTCMy main complaint in the first two seasons was the "B" plot was given almost as much time as the "A" plot, leaving me feeling that they both were underdeveloped and unsatisfying.
David Scudder
2023-10-27 02:54:38 +0000 UTCThat's one thing I love about a series producing so many episodes per year. All the characters got frequent episodes devoted to them that fleshed them out and made them so much more real. It also allowed for fantastic character arcs that would be impossible in today's horrible environment of 10 episode seasons. And once they jumped from TV to movies each character was basically frozen in amber since the whole cast got maybe 90 minutes every two or three years.
David Scudder
2023-10-27 02:51:23 +0000 UTCThat I can understand. I still think people are hyper sensitive about it though.
David Scudder
2023-10-27 02:41:19 +0000 UTCAgreed.
David Scudder
2023-10-27 02:36:42 +0000 UTCLIKELY good intentions??
David Scudder
2023-10-27 02:30:21 +0000 UTCI can see how people could draw those conclusions But to paraphrase MST3K It's just a show we should really just relax. I would like to hear the guest cast explain why in 1987 they agreed to participate in such a horrible evil production. I'm pretty sure they weren't forced at gunpoint.
David Scudder
2023-10-27 02:28:56 +0000 UTCIt's kind of funny too that The federation was expected to adhere to all their customs with no reciprocation.
David Scudder
2023-10-27 02:23:03 +0000 UTCDon't care what the cast says I'm right.
David Scudder
2023-10-27 02:20:05 +0000 UTCWell said!!
David Scudder
2023-10-27 02:17:43 +0000 UTCHere it's a classic case of people of one group being offended on behalf of another group. You could literally change the cast to any ethnic group real or made up without altering one word of the script A bunch of people donning hair shirts to avoid being criticized and called bad names themselves.
David Scudder
2023-10-27 02:15:59 +0000 UTCThis is interesting. I had a worse memory of this episode in my brain for some reason, so it's been many many years since I last saw this episode, and I actually enjoyed it more than I thought I would this time around. And personally, I don't view this episode as inherently racist. This same kind of thing is done with plenty of other cultures in this show (and other shows) and this is really one of the only ones I see people blasting for being racist. But I understand that it's just my own opinion, so it doesn't mean much.
Lady Beyond The Wall
2023-10-22 02:34:32 +0000 UTCAs long as it's your honest feelings and opinions I'm excited to see if you dislike one of the more consensus wise loved episodes...even if your reasons leave me banging my head against the wall, it will be fun!
Drawkcabi
2023-10-20 02:27:21 +0000 UTCi am aware but as someone who makes his own mind up about things I invite you personally to tell me why it is racist.
Christopher Benassi
2023-10-18 21:58:51 +0000 UTCWell the entire TNG has said it was racist and the director was racist.
Derek Orr
2023-10-18 21:33:10 +0000 UTCWell the entire cast of the show disagrees with you
Derek Orr
2023-10-18 21:26:36 +0000 UTCAlways thought this was an inverse of the Spock , Tpring dynamic
Scarpad’s Domain
2023-10-18 04:35:37 +0000 UTCit's a weak episode, mostly because it's boring but racist? why? because all the members of the alien species or at least the continent of the alien species visited in this episode are black? get a grip people, there is literally nothing in this episode which is racist!
Christopher Benassi
2023-10-16 00:20:31 +0000 UTCThe TNG reactions are going to be a revelation for me. With TOS I enjoyed watching your reactions to a show much beloved from my childhood. And as young people do, I had rewatched TOS so many times I used to have every bit of it memorized. Dialog, episode titles, order of airing, writers...all the stuff fanboys really groove on. With TNG, while there are many episodes and even whole seasons I have rewatched at least once or twice, I haven't revisited the first two seasons since I originally watched them. And they are, so far, better than I remember. This episode in particular. I recall having a much more vicarial reaction to it and I believe I read racism into it where none really existed. (I would have been around 26 when this came out so at the height of my youthful "righteous indignation" phase LOL). I believe I am going to enjoy your reactions as much as always but now from a different perspective. The first two seasons won't be my FIRST time watching but they will be the first time in 36 years I have watched them. Simply seeing the characters in their nascent forms compared to how they are in later seasons is fascinating in and of itself. This is going to be fun. Thanks guys.
StealthMomo
2023-10-15 05:57:26 +0000 UTCI have to disagree with a lot of people on the issue with this episodes casting, in that it’s not that the actors were all black, but really the whole 1930s/40s b movie African tribal dialogue and costumes they were given. Personally I don’t even think this is TNG’s most offensive episode-that one is a season away. Race aside, the story itself is a rehash of ideas done before, and since.
Glenn Johnson Barnes
2023-10-14 23:40:49 +0000 UTCWell I enjoyed it a hell of a lot more than I thought I would. It’ll never be one of the best, but it was entertaining. And that means a lot. Where the hell was Worf? One thought Dash this race reminded me a lot of the Elasians from “Elaan of Troius”. It would’ve been interesting to see what would happen if they had landed on this planet instead of the Federation. Who do you suppose would’ve won?
Rich Cirivilleri
2023-10-14 21:38:08 +0000 UTCHair follicles?
Tom Occhipinti
2023-10-14 18:40:00 +0000 UTCDefinitely a poor choice, for sure. Bottom tier episode. And I never liked either Tasha’s writing or Crosby’s performance. But that’s another thing altogether. Now, having nothing to do with Yar…. and no one should address the context of this name, because it’s connected to spoilers …. but I always thought Pulaski was better than people gave credit for. But again, should anyone respond to this… no spoilers. (Perhaps it was unfair of me to bring up the name, just to silence discussion.)
Tom Occhipinti
2023-10-14 18:31:36 +0000 UTCNot only that, even when it was streaming and on DVD for years, it was never better than VHS quality, the new remaster is just stellar.
JD Nevesytrof
2023-10-14 18:10:17 +0000 UTCInteresting, I've never noticed the scars on the faces, probably because I only ever watched it on a shitty vhs 20 years ago...
Brendon Waldron
2023-10-14 16:56:16 +0000 UTCThere is only 1 thing bad about season 2. It is fixed for the rest of the series.
Edweirdo
2023-10-14 16:25:52 +0000 UTC"The Best of Both Worlds? More like the worst!"
Joe Concepts
2023-10-14 16:12:13 +0000 UTCI think the issue is that the clothing, etc, all resembles African tribal designs in some way. And when we visit the first Star Trek planet populated solely by Black people, they look like they were transplanted directly from Africa, and have this crazy backwards culture.
Joe Concepts
2023-10-14 16:10:09 +0000 UTCTasha Yar RULES!
Rich Cirivilleri
2023-10-14 11:44:35 +0000 UTCGuys, I'm not here to say you are wrong to appreciate the early TNG episodes. All I can say is that (when I first saw season 1) I thought it was very shaky and underdeveloped and it clearly relied heavily on the brand that TOS had established. And Roddenberry's influence was very, very clear and largely to the detriment. Without TOS I doubt TNG would have survived for long, without a re-tooling along the lines of 'Galactica 1980' to adjust the budget and target audience.
Numinous2019
2023-10-14 11:19:57 +0000 UTCOh common. Season 1 has some really great ones.
Andreas Schmitt
2023-10-14 11:14:17 +0000 UTCThis episode has garnered an almost mythical quality to it's badness. I mean, it's not a great one for sure. And it's production WAS laced with Racism. But the product itself on its own is a murkier affair. The good reflection of this episode is obviously Marvel's Black Panther, which zigs where this episode zags. Black Panther is about a tribal Black people, but with MORE advanced technology, not less, who are nevertheless ensconced in a deep respect for tradition and culture, but unlike here, that culture does not make the characters of Black Panter seem foolish or easily outwitted. It is also a representational showing of culture, rather than a derivative one based on stereotypes. Had this episode actually gone the reptilian route, the big discussion around the episode wouldn't be as much about racism as whether or not the characters were perceived as a bit pompous or arrogant for how they viewed and interacted with this alien species. In the end, the episode has an aura around it because of its production and themes that just makes it a bit weird to talk about regardless. That said, while this isn't a great episode, I can sit through it and ponder upon it and its mistakes, while there are other episodes even in the good seasons that I find interminable and tough to sit through for being boring. And there are a handful of Season 1 episodes I do enjoy. But admittedly, those good seasons consistently have more. It's gonna be an interesting ride boys.
Nolan
2023-10-14 08:17:06 +0000 UTCOh, one thing I gotta disagree with, this whole notion of character development and the idea it was lacking in TOS: You guys know Spock and McCoy's personalities up and down and in and out. The writing was so good you didn't need a hello episode or a speech laying it all out there because it developed bit by bit. Spock is probably the most fleshed out character in all of Trek, he never got modern serialized writing but his writing and acting was so good he didn't need it.
Ken R
2023-10-14 04:30:45 +0000 UTCGod, as I look at the entire list of Season 1 episodes, I just want Josh and Alex to fast track them. And probably Season 2 as well, though it’s overall better than Season 1. Gotta say, though…. back in 1987, I think I tried to believe they were really good episodes. Without a doubt, though, the real quality kicks in during Season 3.
Tom Occhipinti
2023-10-14 04:03:59 +0000 UTCI read it. Putting aside unverifiable claims against the director, I just don’t buy any of the story reasons why this episode is racist. The fact that the planet didn’t have advanced technology just doesn’t cut it. We’ve see a TON of “white” aliens that have inferior tech. I can go on. But for the sake of cordiality on this forum, and out of respect for our duo…. I’ll leave it there.
Tom Occhipinti
2023-10-14 03:56:42 +0000 UTCThe character growth does come as the episodes and seasons go on. That's one aspect that is actually better than TOS (heresy, I know). Both the cast and the characters really create a bond that is better than any cast of any other Star Trek series. They are all still close friends to this day.
Collin Freeman
2023-10-14 03:48:39 +0000 UTCAgreed. A lot of season 1 feels like TOS. Thats why I think these guys will love it.
Andreas Schmitt
2023-10-14 03:38:26 +0000 UTCThis is one of the episodes I would not rewatch. it was ok, but not even close to how great this series turns into. And as far as people thinking it's racist...I agree with others that I never thought of it as such and still don't. People are just thin skinned and woke programmed anymore.
Monty Crawford
2023-10-14 03:26:16 +0000 UTCThis is probably the first time I've seen this episode in at least 15 years. After watching it through again, I have to say that my opinion on it has changed a little. I am now more firmly in the camp that there's nothing racist about this episode. Maybe you can make an argument that the people doing the casting may have had bigoted motives for casting black people (it's obvious from the script the Ligonians should all be of the same race) instead of Native Americans or Chinese (since their cultures were used as the examples in the episode), but there's nothing racist in the episode. It was also completely irrelevant that Tasha was blonde and white. It only mattered that she was a woman and security chief. The vast majority (if not all) of alien cultures in Star Trek are taken from an Earth culture, usually from the past. They basically do a what if this culture were the only one that existed on a whole planet and developed without outside influence. With real life counter parts to every cultural aspect, it's difficult to call any aspect of any alien race racist. When they do address the subject, they tend to make it obvious (Let That Be Your Last Battlefield). This is an episode that has simply grown in legend in the chat rooms and nerd communities. It keeps getting more and more racist in peoples minds because no one actually goes back and watches it. They just keep talking about it over and over. All that being said, I still maintain this is a weak episode. The opening is very contrived, with there being no real reason for Tasha to block the second trying to give the vaccine to Picard. The ability for the transporter or on board sensors to detect and/or disable anything dangerous should have taken care of all of that. There are some well written scenes in here, but it's not getting into anyone's top ten. But make no mistake, you are in for far worse as the seasons go on. With almost 200 episodes, the law of averages catches up to them.
Nerd's Gold
2023-10-14 03:12:36 +0000 UTCI've never seen this episode before and would have no idea people thought it was racist if I hadn't read the comments here. There was not a single piece of racist plot or dialogue in the entire episode. You could swap out every black person for a bunch of Irish people and you would not have to change a single piece of dialogue or story. In fact, the show implied their culture was kind of Asian.
Ken R
2023-10-14 03:03:14 +0000 UTCI don’t think there was an uproar about this species that I remember. Its kinda nice that there is an alien race who all have brown skin. Makes the show diverse (not in a CRT or woke way). THIS is how you do racially diverse story telling: YOU DONT TALK ABOUT IT! 😁
Chris S.
2023-10-14 01:53:29 +0000 UTCPhillip Grischa further up the thread explained it quite well, I think.
JD Nevesytrof
2023-10-14 01:46:17 +0000 UTCThe Stardates did get longer for TNG. The system they started using was first digit 4 (for 24th century), second digit is the season (in this case 1), and the other three represent the day of the year (apparently, the year is divided into 1000 units!). As it happened, the first digit ended up rolling up to 5 in the DS9 years, even though it wasn't the 25th century!
tyranusfan
2023-10-14 01:34:52 +0000 UTC“I want more prime directive” “I want more holodeck”. Don’t worry chums… y’all gonna get plenty.
Stuart Arbury
2023-10-14 00:26:42 +0000 UTCDudes, can you react to 20 episodes a week? : )
Tom Occhipinti
2023-10-14 00:22:57 +0000 UTCI've always liked this episode. It looks and plays very much like it could have been an episode of the original series. The next couple of episodes are very good. There are a few duds ahead but overall the show improves vastly as the season moves along and the actors really begin to inhabit their characters.
Dan Krantz
2023-10-14 00:22:36 +0000 UTCI really dislike this episode, but even 35-ish years ago, when I heard it called racist, I just scratched my head. I’m STILL scratching my head. Had the cast been white, or pink, or blue, would anyone even think of calling it racist? If the characters are to be judged (either implicitly or overtly) based upon their beliefs, actions, values, and norms….. then those beliefs, actions, values, and norms are on the table for discussion, irrespective of the color of skin of either the characters or actors. I’m not sure why the selective hyper-sensitivity.
Tom Occhipinti
2023-10-14 00:15:12 +0000 UTCLove how you guys constantly subvert everyone's expectations by liking the "bad" episodes and disliking the "good" episodes 😂
Elizabeth N
2023-10-13 23:42:13 +0000 UTCYeah, but they are the only ones that had the vaccine and it was needed fast.
Mike Rogers
2023-10-13 23:40:46 +0000 UTC??? that's from Mr. Mom? lol, sorry, I'm slow. I don't get it
James Bottas
2023-10-13 22:00:06 +0000 UTCLet's also not forget one thing: If the cast is only embarrassed by ONE SINGLE episode out of 178, then the show is doing pretty well ;)
Andreas Schmitt
2023-10-13 21:38:34 +0000 UTCRegarding the Prime Directive (Since nobody else has gone into it yet): Don't worry, it will actually be a much bigger part in TNG than it was in TOS (btw, look up Gene Coon, he invented the Prime directive, the Klingons and even the name "United Federation of Planets. Next to Gene Roddenberry he was arguably the most important person for creating Star Trek) TNG and future shows will explain it in detail, just as you hoped in this reaction, so I'll keep it simple for now: The basic idea (as it was already roughly established in TOS) is to not interfere with the natural development of any culture, to respect another culture's laws, and also to avoid contact with species that are not yet aware that aliens exist. As long as those are maintained, stuff like trading for goods is perfectly ok. In this case stealing the vaccine was not an option, because they have to respect local law.
Andreas Schmitt
2023-10-13 21:33:12 +0000 UTC“38, 39 whatever it takes.”
Thicketdweller
2023-10-13 21:28:54 +0000 UTC@Phillip I'm not a fan of the suggestion that being compared to ancient China is a "backhanded compliment" or that there was any eye rolling going on when discussing the ligonian ideas of honor. Sorry, but I think some of that subtext is being inserted by the viewer. I think Picard means it when he says that they admire the ancient cultures of our own past. I didn't pick up any disrespect when they discussed the concept of "counting coup" being something native americans practiced. I'm canadian (greek ancestry) and we've got a huge population of First Nations people here obviously.. the idea of counting coup sounds kind of badass to me even though it doesn't fit the modern world. To admit that someone's olden day traditions wouldn't fly today isn't condemning a whole people. End of the day, I get why the episode is problematic. No trouble understanding that. Just wish we wouldn't seemingly attribute deliberate sinister intentions to what was surely unintended offenses
James Bottas
2023-10-13 21:27:05 +0000 UTCFor myself, when this episode aired I loved it, it was after all, STAR TREK. I look back on it and I see, the subtext others have applied, while I thought the episode was slow, and suffered from lets define the characters in place of story, I also recognize both then and now it was a work in progress It’s a little Kringey I am a completionist whenever I watch any Star Trek franchise, however, there some episodes that take me days or weeks to hit the play button. Actually this is not one of them. I’ll save thoughts about them ‘till we get to them “No, Spoilers”
Thicketdweller
2023-10-13 21:22:18 +0000 UTCCode of Honor, my Comment. I liked this one also, it was a good Character Ep. for Tasha. I can't figure why so many people dislike this Ep. I did not find it Racist then when it aired or now. The People of the Planet were never referred to as an Asian type culture or being similar to Ancient African Cultures or Kingdoms. When Picard gave Lutan the gift he said, "We are aware of your planets Achievements and it's Unique similarity to an Ancient earth culture we all Admire." Then tells them the gift is from China's Sung Dynasty. The Achievements he is referring to is Technology, Science, Philosophy, Mathematics, Engineering. Anybody Curious can check out the Sung Dynasty on Wiki, the Spelling is Song. Now as for all the people on that planet being black, Would it have been Racist to have them all be Asian or South American? I think it is Woke or over sensitive to be offended by this and not say a thing about the fact there are not too many people from Asia, India or South America and only 4 or 5 Starship personel shown so far in the series. And none in this Ep. that are Black...not counting Geordi. Every Race has had violent, woman-kidnapping, fight-to-the-death cultures....some still do. Also if you pay Attention when the challenge happened Lutan's second said "That has not been done in over 200 years.!" If he wanted to get rid of his wife for her Land he could have arranged an unfortunate Accident say. But I get they wanted to show off Tasha's fighting. OK enough of the PC Crap, How I think you guys will react? I think you will both like it and not even mention the fact everyone from that Planet is Black. I could be wrong so we'll see, my question is Did you think it was at all racist? That's it! 😀🖖
Duane Chancey
2023-10-13 21:01:36 +0000 UTCWell I was right in my opinion on how you guys would React. Not one mention about the all Black Ligonians. 😉 I think I'll just repost my Previous comment about this from Patreon Takes a few days ago. 🖖
Duane Chancey
2023-10-13 21:01:24 +0000 UTCGreat Outro, guys! A classic freeze-frame! Lol Only thing missing was the high-five. ✋😁 Also, Great reaction!
Miguel A. Moreta
2023-10-13 20:49:48 +0000 UTCYou're right that it plays a part. We know the ways the actors settle into their roles later and it is a bit jarring to see them not quite there yet, for sure.
THE LORE!!!
2023-10-13 20:35:49 +0000 UTCI feel like it's true that a huge part of how people feel about Season 1 is cringing at the Early-Installment Weirdness/character differences from especially seasons 3-7. It's like the characters we love are there but we have such a firmly established headcanon in how Picard or Data or anyone WOULD act in any given situation that when they don't, it's jarring.
JD Nevesytrof
2023-10-13 20:31:28 +0000 UTCI think in terms of standing on its own and being your first exposure, the season is fine. I mean, it got renewed for additional seasons for a reason. But I think you'd feel much differently if you got to the end of S7 and then immediately rewatched this. Star Trek TNG hits some of the highest pinnacles of broadcast television ever achieved later on in its run. And even when it isn't firing on all cylinders, it's still usually better than this, at least in my opinion. In the meantime, I am glad you're seeing the positive sides to it.
THE LORE!!!
2023-10-13 20:24:47 +0000 UTCWell as I said on another post, we can all agree that TNG will only get better from here ;) And considering that our guys enjoyed these two episodes, there's good times ahead for them :)
Andreas Schmitt
2023-10-13 20:24:28 +0000 UTCHonestly, you got through what virtually everyone considers to be the worst of TNG and very closely the worst of all of (pre-JJ) Trek without too much of a problem, I'm super interested to see what you guys will actually dislike of TNG going forward, but for just about everyone else it's all uphill from here!
JD Nevesytrof
2023-10-13 20:19:19 +0000 UTCI wrote a longer post about why it's seen as racist further down but the short version is that Lutan is the stereotype of a black man stealing a white woman, the ligonian culture is portrayed as less advanced and backwards (being compared to China in the 13th century is kind of a backhanded compliment), the crew figuratively rolls their eyes at their idea of honor. Picard literally says they could easily subjugate them and take what they want with gives colonial vibes, it is implied that the ligonians are lucky humans have evolved beyond that but black people being at the mercy of white people is played is a factor here. If you look at the episode as written you won't notice the racism because it's not really in the script itself but casting black people changed how It was perceived.
Phillip Grischa
2023-10-13 20:06:47 +0000 UTCIt absolutely does
James Bottas
2023-10-13 20:05:14 +0000 UTChttps://youtu.be/AnySfN02YYQ?t=1320 From about 22:00 to 23:00
James Bottas
2023-10-13 20:00:37 +0000 UTC😅 fair enough. Still seems a bit of a strong response in a scenario where diplomacy is the aim but hey, the ligonians ended up liking it
James Bottas
2023-10-13 19:56:12 +0000 UTCI think one thing we can all agree upon is: The episode quality will only go up from here ;)
Andreas Schmitt
2023-10-13 19:53:19 +0000 UTCI could only get about about half way through this one and had to bail. Just as bad as I'd remembered.
John M.
2023-10-13 19:50:51 +0000 UTCWell to be fair she only attacks the guy AFTER he ignored her direction to hand the gift first to her for inspection. A guy ignoring the security officer's direction NOT to immediately approach the captain is kind of a security threat, if a mild one. And her reaction was pretty mild, it's not like she shot him haha I think the first couple episodes made a rather big deal out of the Captain's safety.
Andreas Schmitt
2023-10-13 19:50:31 +0000 UTCI feel it's also a specifically American perception of the episode. Here in Europe where black vs white isn't really a thing in daily life, I've never heard anybody consider the episode racist at all. It's just not all that good :D
Andreas Schmitt
2023-10-13 19:40:32 +0000 UTCI always liked it, because I like Tasha :)
Andreas Schmitt
2023-10-13 19:38:36 +0000 UTCI agree with your approach however @Target Audience. All this background info is nice and all, but I still want you to experience and react to episodes based on their plot and how you enjoy it, not based on whether the director was an idiot. I'm still listening to the audiobook about the production of TOS. Imagine you'd react to City on the Edge of Forever knowing that the original author hated what DC Fontana did to his script. Or that the director of episode X hated Roddenberry's guts, or that Janice wasn't in it because she was considered pointless, or that Scotty wasn't it it because they didn't have the money for it, or to TMP knowing that the cast hated working on it. All that is interesting to know but it doesn't change the episode. I can still appreciate a peace of music or a painting even though I know the artist may have been a dick :P
Andreas Schmitt
2023-10-13 19:36:48 +0000 UTCFor a racist episode the plot is pretty weird. We have a white woman express open sexual attraction towards a black lead, the planet's population is respected and even compared to one of humanity's high cultures... pretty weird for a racist episode of you ask me. And again... I don't care how the cast feels about this. The cast has made all kinds of stupid statements over the years. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying nobody is allowed to have this feeling about the episode. I just wish someone would actually explain WHY this episode is racist, aside from "everybody on the planet is black" and "the cast calls it racist" or "the director was a racist". Something about the actual PLOT.
Andreas Schmitt
2023-10-13 19:27:46 +0000 UTCAny possible racist analysis aside, I now remember a big reason I didn't like it is because the main theme of the plot is, 'We have to humor this asshole." I feel like a reasonable response to this situation was, "We're beaming up and not letting our crew member fight to the death. We will put you in touch with the Federation council and you can take it up with them." After all, the crew didn't decide to get involved in their society. It was all the other people's fault.
Joe Concepts
2023-10-13 19:27:16 +0000 UTCIf you don't see it that might just be one of your blindspots, that's not a criticism, we all have blindspots but if so many people think the episode is racist then maybe consider that there's truth in that even if you don't see it. You can still enjoy the episode, there's nothing wrong with that, you are not obligated to hate it but maybe try to understand why others do and don't dismiss this as judging the episode by modern standards, the cast has talked about how they were uncomfortable filming the episode back then.
Phillip Grischa
2023-10-13 19:20:14 +0000 UTCHe did a recent interview (IGN) where he expressed that there was likely good intentions and the outcome was an unfortunate accident
James Bottas
2023-10-13 19:07:24 +0000 UTCWhen I first saw this episode, I thought it was okay. But all the later talk about the racism aspect was something that went over my head. Even when meeting Michael Dorn, he was asked what he thought was the worst episode and he quickly said "Code Of Honor". He said he watched it with friends and joked "What's that smell? Oh, it's the TV!". It makes me wonder if Dorn refused to be in the episode.
Mike Rogers
2023-10-13 18:59:54 +0000 UTCThank you for the explanation! Wasn’t familiar with that history
Josh (Target Audience)
2023-10-13 18:51:20 +0000 UTCThe racist problem with the episode is not really the script, that wasn't great but it never specified the aliens ethnicity. The director chose to cast only black people as the Ligonians and that was very problematic, being black Lutan basically becomes the racist stereotype of a black man stealing a white woman which is problematic in itself, then there's the fact that the crew seems to look down on the ligonian culture, and well, the ligonians are black and the crew mostly white with Geordie only having a relatively small part in the episode and Worf being absent entirely. It's not a good look and reminded many people of white europeans looking at "primitive" african tribes, Picard even says with their superior weapons they could easily subjugate them which is exactly what white colonizers did in the past. That the director mistreated the black guest stars made things even worse because it became painfully obvious that casting only black people did not happen out of ignorance, he read the script, perceived the ligonians as less advanced and dangerous and decided "Yup, black!", he was fired halfway through production and for a tv show to do that things must have been bad on set.
Phillip Grischa
2023-10-13 18:44:37 +0000 UTCWith this one it's not so much about good or bad... people's sensitivities are the main factor when it comes to how this one is regarded
James Bottas
2023-10-13 18:43:54 +0000 UTCIn my head canon it was both
Josh (Target Audience)
2023-10-13 18:38:36 +0000 UTCAnyone else find it hilarious how there is no establishment that these people are dangerous or not to be trusted, but then Yar straight up attacks the dude attempting to hand a gift to Picard? Afterward Picard is like, no I feel no need to be cautious of you. But then, shouldn't you reign in your security officer a bit? Lol
James Bottas
2023-10-13 18:36:13 +0000 UTCThere is a big difference between a director being racist, cast members hating it or being treated bad, and the episode ACTUALLY being racist. To this day I see absolutely no racism in this episode at all. Yes the cast may have hated it, yes maybe the director was a racist. But that doesn't mean the episode itself is.
Andreas Schmitt
2023-10-13 18:29:55 +0000 UTCEh alright, but I think MOST controversial might be a stretch then
Josh (Target Audience)
2023-10-13 18:28:53 +0000 UTCThinking the episode is racist is not a modern perspective, the director was fired halfway through production and never worked on Star Trek again specifically because he mistreated the black guest stars and the cast has openly talked about hating the episode since their early convention appearances in the 80s.
Phillip Grischa
2023-10-13 18:23:32 +0000 UTCI think, not having a completely negative view of the episode you're expected to have a completely negative view of
James Bottas
2023-10-13 18:21:33 +0000 UTCThis is the one episode, Michael Dorn, as Worf, was very happy to not be in.
Mark Chrisco
2023-10-13 18:15:09 +0000 UTCHahaha, I knew you were going to end up liking these first two proper episodes :) In terms of this one being the "racist" one... honestly I feel people are looking back on it based on interviews given by actors in the 2020 mindset. It has zero to do with how the episode was actually percieved when it aired. It's just modern hollywood perspectives. The episode surely isn't one of Star Trek's finest writing but all this nonsense is blown out of proportion. I do agree however that the quality will noticably increase from here on out. But I also know you'll eventually hate the occasional episode. And every one of the future shows will have some stinkers (I'm looking at you Voyager). But all the shows have a very high average and some solid gold ones that will blow CIty on the Edge of Forever out of the Water. I really enjoy your reactions to this, and one of the reasons is that I already know that most of what you ask for and hope for is in the future. Like when you said "I want more of the crew to be involved" after TMP, I knew you were going to love ST III :) I obviously won't spoil anything, but what I will say is this: I already know you guys well enough to know what you hope for and what you enjoy and would like to see. And I'd say there's PLENTY of that in your Star Trek future :) So strap in, and enjoy the ride. Engage!
Andreas Schmitt
2023-10-13 17:57:56 +0000 UTCWhat would be controversial about it?
Josh (Target Audience)
2023-10-13 17:43:34 +0000 UTCHoo boy. This is going to be your most controversial reaction ever when it hits YouTube. I don't want to speculate too much about it, but it'll be interesting to see how that goes down. Looking forward to the next one.
Anthony Bernacchi
2023-10-13 17:34:05 +0000 UTCThis was awesome to watch with you guys. I'm a bit embarrassed that I gave a take on this episode on your other post that, to sum it up, was that I don't think that intentional racism was behind the making of this episode at all and that despite how it may have looked in retrospect there was probably good intentions here. Sadly, this is the episode that cannot be mentioned without the word "racist" attached. The cast call it racist if ever asked about. It's "the Racist episode." I second guessed myself and deleted my comment for not being totally negative on the episode and not attaching the same branding to it. Let me just say after watching with you guys, I knew there was an at least ok Star Trek story in here if a bunch of racism isn't Projected onto it. You guys could see and commented on the bad optics of the all black cast in this setting and were still able to see some good in there. They should have cast a mixed group of actors for the ligonians and painted them all purple or something lol ...I might delete this later lol jk
James Bottas
2023-10-13 17:27:35 +0000 UTCAnd it was mentioned in TOS a LOT more than they seem to remember.
KatWithAttitude
2023-10-13 17:23:03 +0000 UTCA pretty much universally hated episode, including by the cast. Others will post more details about that. I personally don't care for it, but it has its good moments like any bad episode. Not many, but some.
KatWithAttitude
2023-10-13 17:21:25 +0000 UTCData wasn’t jealous about Tasha being attracted to Lutan. He was curious of human behavior.
Toysruskiddd
2023-10-13 17:10:04 +0000 UTCPrime Directive, also referred to as "Directive One" or "Non Interference Directive" by Spock. It basically sums up as "Don't mess around with non-warp capable species." This is really muddy with species that have some kind of space travel or advanced tech, but not warp drive. In those cases it seems they can have LIMITED contact.
Steven Johnson
2023-10-13 16:30:10 +0000 UTCIs Wesley now constantly "holding up the damn elevator" until someone lets him on the bridge?
James H
2023-10-13 16:23:26 +0000 UTCAbout stardates... On the Original Series, the stardates were more or less meaningless, and even jumped back and forth. BUT the 1st season tended to go from 1000.00 to 3000.00, with the later seasons like 4000s and 5000s. With TNG they made some sense of it. So, generally TNG Season 1 stardates are 41000.00, Season 2 is 42000.00, etc. So the second number is always the TNG season number. And DS9, Voyager, all the other things taking place after TNG go by those dates. For example, the first season of DS9 starts with 46000 because it happens concurrently with TNG Season 6.
Joe Concepts
2023-10-13 16:16:21 +0000 UTCThey used to call the planet set in early TNG "Planet Hell" because it was always incredibly hot.
Steven Johnson
2023-10-13 15:53:06 +0000 UTC*hums the Amok Time fight music, only badly.* Gonna get something to eat. Let's do this.
Steven Johnson
2023-10-13 15:10:20 +0000 UTCOh boy.... I can't wait for this one.
Mike Rogers
2023-10-13 15:07:48 +0000 UTC
