Men, Contrapoints, and PragerU

Yeah I think the problem with gendered terms "masculinity" and "femininity" comes with a lot of baggage, in that while they are useful terms in describing gender expressions and presentational aesthetics, unfortunately they also have been seeped in thousands of years of sexism and has all those "men are from Mars women are from Venus" type of gender essentialist value judgement being tied to them. I think Big Joel's point here that the "modern" idea that "positive masculinity means men who are empathetic, not afraid to cry and show emotions" is pretty useless, because traits like " being empathetic not afraid to cry and show emotions" shouldn't be a "masculine" or "feminine" thing but just an everyone thing. Redefining "modern positive masculinity" in terms that are actually just universally positive human traits just makes the terms "masculinity" and "femininity" useless again because what's the point of doing that. However I do feel that gender as a concept is still useful in our daily lives. For example I think it'll be easier for trans people to just say "I'd like to present as masc/femme" than trying to describe what it means to be masc/femme in the abstract. Or in my case as a gay man I think it's useful for me to be able to say that I'm attracted to masculinity without having to explain all the signifiers that constitute what "masculinity" means.

conancat

Like you say, the confusing thing is any trait you assign to men would appear to just redefine new gender roles and therefore limit human freedom. But I think there is a way around this. Encouraging a positive masculinity needn't be about enforcing or even even couraging men to have certain traits, but can instead can be to identify which traits men already tend to have more of, whether due to culture or even biological reasons, and make sure that in overcoming the toxic traits, they are not ashamed, or are even proud, to embody the not-toxic ones.

I don't think you're getting enough feedback given how awesome this is! You rule, Big Joel!

Isaac Samuel

I enjoy2

Melody Williamson

In many cultures, 'good traits' that aren't necessarily gendered are still perceived to be 'boosting' masculinity or femininity due to the premise that masculine men = good and feminine women = good. An example is how in many societies around the globe (historically at least) dressing well and being clean is 'good' in general so the image of a masculine man includes dressing well as does the image of a feminine woman, or looking at a specific culture, in China, in many dynasties (minus Tang) a delicate and beautiful man is as masculine an image as a delicate and beautiful woman is feminine. Traits that are perceived as enhancing gender aren't always strictly gendered themselves, in fact 'good traits' often overlap if you list the image of masculinity and femininity in history. This isn't to disagree with this outtake, I agree with your conclusion in terms of moving forward, but just a point that's relevant to the conversation I think.

I think performance theory is the best way to understand gender, but lots of people (Including Contrapoints) are uncomfortable with this for various reasons. In practice, I think healthy masculinity means a performance that strikes a perfect balance between pleasing (or displeasing) patriarchs and feminists. It's Jonathan Majors in a fluffy pink coat on the cover of Ebony. The most ridiculous thing is that this impossible balancing act is expected to just come naturally.

Alice

Enjoy talking about what you want, Joel. Not like you gotta get a grade based on cohesion and topic sentences anymore - stream of consciousness it up!

That painting rules

Stephen B Devine