Mad Men 5x04 Reaction

Finally Greg has been given the boot 🥳

Mark M

It is in the Time Life building! Don says it outright in the interview that ends 4x01.

Sebastian

What would Dr. Melfi say about this episode? Every scene depicts someone struggling to integrate past life experiences into their present day reality. Carl Jung could write a treatise on every one of these characters. Also the question keeps arising about the events in the outside world. They are documented daily in the New York Times, giving the audience an exact date for when the show's action takes place. It also just occurred to me that if Joyce works for Time Magazine, SCDP must be located in the Time & Life Building on 6th Avenue.

Thomas Fahey

Give it a rest, will you?

Sebastian

cute

on crip ...

I think "tilden katz" and "on crip" should have a conversation together, they might tire each other out

Kev

In this episode, it is Peggy who decides to act against societal racism and it is Peggy who comes away changed by the experience. In this framing, critical aspects of 1960s race relations are obscured. Peggy is positioned as a 'white savior.' She 'saves' Dawn, a black secretary, from the violence of the race riots. Granted, the resulting storyline makes Peggy look naive about race, but that has already been established. In a previous episode, she failed to comprehend the difference between her oppression and the oppression of black people. Ultimately, through this narrative structure, Dawn becomes another passively written non-white character. Will we ever get a non-white character that portrays active agency, that works towards their own ends? I observe a preference for scenes idealizing that "times were changing" over depicting the actual racial reality of the 1960s. The way Peggy stumbles over her own racial prejudices is too lighthearted, almost comical. Moreover, her scenes simultaneously conceal how social change actually occurs. Race relations didn't improve in the 1960s because white people suddenly started to question racial hierarchy. It was black people and their allies actively forcing the country to change. Of course, not every black person was an outspoken activist. However, that doesn't excuse how Dawn is passively portrayed in this episode. First, it's simply not believable. Dawn's resume elevated her above every other black woman who applied to SCDP. Her character's docility in this episode does not align with that background fact. Second, active resistance isn't confined to "being in the streets." Resistance can take many forms. Professor Patricia Hill Collins, a black feminist theorist, has written extensively on the various ways black women have historically resisted racial oppression. She writes of a 1940s law student, Ruth Powell's one-woman campaign wherein "[s]he would enter cafeterias, politely ask for service, and, when refused, sit quietly, sometimes for hours at a time. During her sit-ins she would pick out a waiter and stare at him for perhaps an hour or more. “Whether I was finally served or not was unimportant,” Powell explained. “What I believed was that all these little bits of agitation would go toward that vital . . . awakening process” (pp. 216-217). So, Dawn might not be an activist, in a manner we usually imagine, but her character's social position still allows for subtle, nuanced acts against systemic racism. Unfortunately, the episode's narrative structure doesn't allow us anywhere near her perspective. We are deprived of witnessing her participation in any act of resistance big, or small. A shift towards writing non-white characters with active agency would provide more realistic and nuanced storytelling. What if we followed Dawn as she traversed the SCDP offices after-hours? What if she was frightened by Peggy making noise and promptly investigated? There's a vast amount of story possibilities that can spotlight Dawn as an active character. Why does Mad Men gravitate towards narrative structures that limit their exploration of black interiority, and critically of misogynoir? cited: Chapter "Rethinking Black Women's Activism" from Black Feminist Thought by Patricia Hill Collins

on crip ...

I love how its casually assumed that "Don is a racist ". The utter contempt in which he is held is fascinating.

tilden katz

Yeah its because of the rape.Someone on here said it before, its the big elephant in the room with them in every scene . It feels like they're both pretending in every other facet of their relationship so, the baby is just another thing to pretend about

Edgar Pena

I find it interesting how Joan is never condemned for passing off another man's child as her husband's. It's a monstrous thing to do to a man. I think perhaps the show means it as a revenge for the rape. Thematically, it can be seen as a vicious form of neutering. I'm guessing audiences don't care because it couldn't happen to a nicer man. But that doesn't absolve the evil of the act itself, the conscious decision that Joan made to have that baby and engage in this monstrous deception. For my part it's one of the very worst things anyone has done on the show. But I never hear anyone morally condemn her for it.

Julien

What I find interesting about the Greg scene is that he knew what she was talking about. It's such a vague reference and yet he knew immediately. Which suggests that he has known all along that he did an evil thing.

Julien

It's remarkable that it's even a debate. How would she even know where Don lives.

Julien

You're right on point when it comes to how Dawn can't speak freely and Peggy kinda fails to pick up on it. But I think Peggy's "We have to stick together" is mostly just sweet. It's her saying hey, we're both women in a man's world, more alike than we're different.

Sebastian

It's gotta be intentional that they cast a Twin Peaks alum for the dream murder, right? She's great in this episode. They also use reverse-footage in the scene where Don lies down in bed after kicking Andrea out of the apartment.

Mike

I wasn't too excited for this episode because I mostly remembered the Don storyline, which feels a bit cheesy. But I didn't remember it also had the absolute gold nugget of a scene where Peggy extorts Roger, and Joan finally, finally kicking Greg to the curb. It's amazing the restraint they have to keep the rape an unadressed elephant in the room for three whole seasons before finally paying it off.

Sebastian

Haha, I never knew. Christ that's dark.

Sebastian

The short answer is Roger is funny and Don isn’t.

Jamie

I think we almost unanimously didn't hype up The Suitcase for them with a few exceptions. So yeah we need to keep it up

bondbond53

One thing about the Dawn Peggy storyline is that despite Peggy's good intentions, there is a clear power imbalance between them and Dawn knows this. She can't allow herself to talk as freely as Peggy talks, I'm sure Dawn would like to commiserate and rant about the office but she's keenly aware of the precariousness of her position, and that if she says the wrong thing, it could have serious repercussions. It's worse because she knows that Don & Peggy are close and what she says could get back to him. It reminds me of the scene between Pete and Hollis in the elevator. Pete approaches him casually as if they are on equal footing, but Hollis is uncomfortable and hesitant to speak because he KNOWS they aren't and that Pete could get him canned in an instant. Pete is oblivious to this, and here Peggy is too. Peggy's "we have to stick together" is well-meaning but kind of tone deaf. This is the second time she's equated her own struggles as a woman with that of black people.

Taya

I always find it fascinating when people prefer Roger to Don (this isn't a comment for this particular ep) - we don't get as much of a look into Roger's personal life, I feel like if we did it wouldn't be such.

Dhaval Kale

You know ... I will say ... Generally, I'm with most of the regulars & I'm not a fan of any kind of 'expectation setting' kinda stuff. BUT. I'm watching The Wire for the first time with L&M - currently on S4E2, and they went in with the knowledge that Season 4 is everyone's favourite and apparently the best. I believe they might've also known The Suitcase was gonna be a big one? And for The Wire at least, I don't think it made much of a difference to their experience. Anyway ... might not be that big a deal; but yeah, keep it to a minimum. Most of that just to say ... Fvtany 30 & Pbqsvfu Onyy ner zl snibhevgr rcvfbqrf naq V jvyy nyjnlf tb gb ong sbe gurz bire f4r9. Naq gung frpbaq eha bs rcvfbqrf - F5R10-12 - whfg nf tbbq, naq ahgf gb or va gur fnzr frnfba. V trg jr qba'g arrq gb frg nal xvaq bs rkcrpgngvbaf sbe gurz, yrg vg whfg cynl bhg ... ohg V'z fb rkpvgrq sbe gurz orpnhfr V guvax jr nyy xabj gurl ner tbvat gb ybir nyy bs gur nobir.

ruseka

“Dazzle me” my favourite line from the series 🥰 I think Moss said somewhere that in this scene she played it as if Peggy was Roger - it’s so funny and perfect

Cal

Mystery Date was a board game from the 50s (shown in some kind of tv show version I'm assuming that Sally is watching at the beginning) that was mainly played by young girls where basically the goal is you open a door and a guy is standing behind it to take you on a date and you hope it's a handsome one and a type of date your character is dressed for before opening the door. Thematically rich for the episode for obvious reasons.

Jay Craig

Vg jvyy or sha jngpuvat gurz tebna ng gur Orgu cybg yvxr vg'f nabgure Crgr purngvat fgbelyvar (bapr gurl trg bire gur npgerff orvat sebz Tvyzber Tveyf, juvpu V'z nffhzvat gurl'ir frra), naq gura gur RPG nfcrpg pbzrf bhg bs abjurer naq uvgf yvxr n gehpx. V nyfb ernyyl ybir Ng gur Pbqsvfu Onyy. V nyjnlf erzrzore gur gvgyr orpnhfr nsgre zl svefg erjngpu V fcrpvsvpnyyl jnagrq gb svaq gur rcvfbqr jurer Zrtna qryviref gur ornhgvshy Urvam ornaf cvgpu (bb, vf gung gur fnzr rcvfbqr jurer Crttl trgf xvpxrq bss gur ohfvarff sbe gelvat gb chyy n Qba jvgu gur thl?), ohg vg'f nyfb fhpu n cresrpgyl-jenccrq cerfrag bs na rcvfbqr. Guvf bar, fhecevfvat, vf gbb. V guvax guvf bar vf n yvggyr zber evqqyvat tvira gur nzbhag bs fgbelyvar vg pbiref va qvssrerag cynprf, ohg V ybir ubj rirelguvat gvrf gbtrgure ng yrnfg flzobyvpnyyl.

Kev

When they mentioned how they think Don is trying to be faithful but will fail, I thought they were about to say they are "waiting for the other shoe to drop". Would've been such a perfect pun for this episode!

Kev

Yes, "Don" and "Dawn" sound similar. That's why in the last episode Harry was asking if it gets confusing and saying he gets them mixed up when people are saying their names.

Kev

Ah, actually this wasn't the episode I remembered it as. V onfvpnyyl rkcrpgrq gur Crttl fghss, ohg jvgu ure jbexvat hc ng avtug gung Tvaforet jbhyq or gurer naq unir gur jubyr "V'z na nyvra" fcvry, naq gung jvgu Qnja fgnlvat jvgu Crttl vg jbhyq unir gur fprar ng gur bssvpr jurer Wbna njxjneqyl gevrf gb uht ure, naq V gubhtug Qba naq Zrtna'f cybgyvar jnf tbvat gb gung qvare jvgu gur benatr fureorg (vg gnfgrf yvxr creshzr) gura ure ehaavat njnl. Gur rcvfbqr jurer vg tbrf cybgyvar ol cybgyvar naq abg puebabybtvpny. Fb V jnf pbzovavat n srj qvssrerag barf. Jung n terng frnfba! But a very good one, very strong with all the symbolism and themes tying together. I think my first thought (for Joan/Peggy/Sally & Pauline/The nurses/Cinderella) was a theme of What women have to do to survive, but then there is Don's story. So I think it is more so using the different roles/expectations of women as a backdrop to show how they shape everything in our society -- Joan as the military wife, then possibly a single mom; Sally as a little girl learning about sexual violence; Peggy as a secretary, then a confident copywriter; Dawn as a black woman navigating racial tensions and police brutality; even Andrea, as the seductress, then as the victim. It's like different forms of archetypes for women: the background/support (Joan as a wife could be seen as clawing her way into being the protagonist), the heroes, the villain and the victim (Andrea inhabiting both of the last two, like a femme fatale who is then also victimized, even though it's just a fever dream). Megan is also very maternal-coded which is another archetype, I love the shot of her walking into the doorway with the sunlight melting into her motherly silhouette, holding the water/tray for a sick Don. At least this episode we see a contrast between she and Joan, whose problems are at the forefront whereas Megan is just the perfect emotional support for the protagonist; an abstraction, which is what that shot communicates to me.

Kev

Shelly Johnson 😍

cheech

It's a (minor) running debate in the fandom whether Andrea visited Don's apartment at all. Some think she did show up that first time and he kicked her out, while others think everything at home was a hallucination. I've heard the interpretation that his dream was him trying to kill the part of himself that feels so driven to cheat, since he does seem to have remained faithful to Megan so far. Andrea's own dialogue in his mind shows he's still full of self-loathing, so he knows that eventually he's going to do it again and he doesn't want that to happen. I do love the sequence of Peggy extorting such a large payment from Roger. Don had told her in season two that if she wants a raise, to ASK for the raise (like a man). Now she sees the power that she has in this situation, and she uses it for all it's worth. I said in a comment on the last episode that my sympathy for Roger is very marginal, since he COULD do his own job but doesn't bother. It's the same thing here: This problem is solely of his own making, so Peggy doesn't owe him anything. If he wants her to give up her own time (and lie to cover him) then he needs to compensate her for it.

JBK405

Pauline giving Sally some straight talk one week after her conversation with Betty is really interesting. We've heard a lot about Betty's mother, but she died before the series started. And honestly we haven't seen many women from that generation on the show at all. Because so much of Betty & Sally's story is about imparting -- or not imparting! -- yourself to your daughter, it's really fascinating to see a mother/grandmother figure come in and be so unsentimental about sharing lessons that women need (in Pauline's opinion) to survive in the world. I'm not saying that she'e 100% right about this stuff, especially with Betty, but that story about her dad kicking her across the room out nowhere certainly feels apt in light of the Richard Speck murders. Spooky family member who shares stuff with you that is *way* inappropriate for your age. I mean, who didn't have that experience growing up?

Mike

Haven't watched yet but wanted to say, what a great choice for the thumbnail, assuming it isn't random/temporary. One of my favorite scenes in the show, been waiting for this episode almost just for that scene. Though it's a great episode overall too. What a great season. What a great television series.

Kev

Pauline reminds me so much of my aunt. She used to babysit me all the time and loved to scare me. She'd tell me the plots of the Stephen King books she was reading, and let me watch The X-Files with her when I was like...8. She even kinda looks & sounds like her.

Taya

Holy christ people how hard is it to not talk about upcoming episodes

Mike

Murder episode! Man, I love this one. The Richard Speck stuff looming over everything is so ominous and turns the rest of the storylines on their ear in such a fascinating way. Even if this episode only gave us Peggy shaking down Roger, that's enough. (The man needs to stop carrying so much cash.) But it also has one of the coldest lines in the Mad Men history from Joan -- "and you *know* what I'm talking about" -- plus Don strangling a former flame in a fever dream. Also: This season continues to be a coming out party for Kiernan Shipka. She absolutely rocks in this one. Perfect needle drop at the end, too. So eerie after the subject matter in the episode. V'yy fnl guvf orybj gur sbyq, orpnhfr V'ir tvira bgure crbcyr fuvg sbe ulcvat hcpbzvat rcvfbqrf, ohg guvf vf gur svefg rcvfbqr va n eha bs svir (guebhtu Ynql Ynmnehf) gung vzb vf gur orfg eha bs rcvfbqrf va gi uvfgbel. Gur fubj vf svevat ba nyy plyvaqref urer. Oevyyvnag fghss.

Mike

I've always taken Henry's mother talking about her father being about her realizing there are terrible things/people out there that effect good people for no reason. She was just passing the teaching/warning to Sally in a less horrible/violent way. Also, the killings are real, they were committed by Richard Speck in 1966, and he was sentenced for 400-1200 years in prison to make sure he could never even touch a parole board after his death sentence got thrown out due to prosecutors illegally removing people who were against the death penalty and the death penalty was subsequently banned in Illinois.

wwesvrfan215

I'm a photographer (just a hobby) and clearly you guys have changed the color grading of your recording (intentionally or not) for this episode and definitely the last (and perhaps since the beginning of the season). It could also just be the camera automatically adjusting to what looks like natural light coming from the right (your left). In any event, vast improvement. I love it.

Julien

I think that Ginsberg was just doing stream of consciousness, he just speaks what is on his mind. He was probably unconsciously influenced by the photos to come up with the ad, but then realized it was too dark, as he said.

Juanma88

kristinn_

You guys were talking over it but the tv show that Sally was watching is called Mystery Date. In my mind it could also refer to Don's fever dream, and the murderer showing up on the doorstep of the nurses. Mystery date, indeed.

Taya