[TWS] Chapter 159 – Time of Change [HIDDEN]

Thanks for the chapter

Aurora1325

Hmm... I have an email notification of another reply to me that I can't see here now. :/ I'll assume that it was deleted, so won't name the person who replied, but I wanted to thank them for their response. Also, I wanted to let them know I agree with them. The fact they wrote a reply in the first place also highlights to me that I haven't communicated myself well in some of my points. So I'm hoping that this can help fix that. The key parts of what was written to me was as follows: --- Context - "@FeyOne your opinions and thoughts on alternatives changes the emotion that is shown. Author(Saileri)'s "Turning his attention back to Tina, he chuckled to himself. "Now, things got a little bit harder."" In my opinion this /\, keeps our MC's more tame attitude. While this(Your Example)..." Key points - "...Changes the atmosphere around our MC completely, changing it into a more loud version, changing the character that we all know and love. also by saying "almost" laughed in "he almost laughed from surprise" your therein removing laughter from this scene. while our author(Saileri)'s words "he chuckled to himself" expresses audible humor, while your words @FeyOne do not." ----- To which I say - ... You are absolutely correct. The rest of the reply was equally detailed and correct on all points, with very clear analysis of how the example changes could alter the feeling of the characters interaction completely. That said, I never intended to imply that my example alternate was better. That's why I also wrote: "Hmm... I have an email notification of another reply to me that I can't see here now. :/ I'll assume that it was deleted, so won't name the person who replied, but I wanted to thank them for their response. Also, I wanted to let them know I agree with them. The fact they wrote a reply in the first place makes it clear that my agreement with them isn't clear, and I'm hoping that this can help fix that. So I'll reproduce, here, just the part of their reply that I believe was most relevant. --- Context - "@FeyOne your opinions and thoughts on alternatives changes the emotion that is shown. Author(Saileri)'s "Turning his attention back to Tina, he chuckled to himself. "Now, things got a little bit harder."" In my opinion this /\, keeps our MC's more tame attitude. While this(Your Example)..." Key points - "...Changes the atmosphere around our MC completely, changing it into a more loud version, changing the character that we all know and love. also by saying "almost" laughed in "he almost laughed from surprise" your therein removing laughter from this scene. while our author(Saileri)'s words "he chuckled to himself" expresses audible humor, while your words @FeyOne do not." ----- To which I say - ... You are absolutely correct. I wrote a lot in my comment, and reply, because I was hoping to capture a lot of things: My deep respect and appreciation for @Saileri Thus my own statement - "And yes, the second one is obviously more in my voice, and I absolutely don't think it's quite right. I'm not saying you should have written it like that, I'm saying that there are other ways to describe and capture a "quiet laugh to oneself" than just plugging the word chuckle in." I can tell from the responses I've had, though, that I didn't make my key points clear. Which is unfortunate, but it's my own fault. I wrote a lot in my comment, and reply, because I was hoping to capture a lot of things: My deep respect and appreciation for @Saileri's skill as a writer, my appreciation for their works and the stories they are providing to us, and many other things. Unfortunately, I am pretty sure I hit the wrong note's across the board. In spite of that, I do stand by my core point that there are more options on the table than just one word. Heck, even just adding an appropriate adjective or adverb to the use of chuckle would immediately remove a lot of the tedium. After all, the core definition of "chuckle" is - "a quiet laugh to oneself". Sticking purely with that, we have: 1) the definition - "laughed quietly to himself", instead of "chuckled to himself" 2) variations of the definition - "laughed quietly", "quietly laughed", "quietly laughed to himself", "laughed to himself", etc... 3) modifications of any and all of the above - "chuckled happily", "gleefully chuckled", "chuckled in surprise", "laughed quietly in surprise", "laughed quietly to himself with pleasure", etc... At the end of the day, I'd never dream of being able to say how the author should actually write their story. The final, and exact, wording is up to them. That said, the way "chuckled" is currently relied on is flat and feels like a placeholder. If @hawkshe is right, and this is an early draft, then I'm out of line from the start of it and apologize. On the other hand, if much of what is here is considered close to final draft, then I stand by my input that the current usages of laughter by the characters need a bit more love than they currently get.

FeyOne

@hawkshe, that's an excellent point I hadn't thought of. My intent, however poorly I may have expressed it, isn't to be negative, though. :/ I know from my own experiences that real improvement past the early stages of any skill only comes from active, deliberate practice of the skill guided by deep consideration of how the skill is lacking at any given point in time. I also know that identifying, accurately, what is lacking in one's own skills is almost impossible without some source of honest, external feedback. This is easiest to see with physical skills, and we practically take it for granted in that environment. After all, what's the point of a coach, or an instructor/teacher, except to provide guidance and external feedback? As a society, though, we get increasingly weird about it when it comes to less and less physical skills. In this, both writing and storytelling are skills. Just like management, problem solving, and thousands of other things. It's in that spirit that I mentioned it, and in that spirit that I took the time to write a sizeable comment about it, because I DO really like @Saileri 's work. I respect the work, effort, and thought that they are putting into their writing, and I personally feel a desire to give back to them for the joy they have given me. As I said in my reply to their reply, though, if I've missed the mark on that... then I'm deeply sorry. I know that intentions don't matter if outcomes are bad.

FeyOne

I'll agree that the author tends to default to chuckling for guys and giggling for girls a bit more than he should, but my problem with bringing it up here is that most authors treat Patreon as a place to post their first draft of the story and I don't think this a first draft issue, rather it strikes me as something to keep in mind later when editing the story to a more finished state.

hawkshe .

Oh, boy. That would certainly be something.

Termac

Thank you for your response, and I do recognize that you use the other words as well. I also recognize that you are 100% correct in that a lot of people seek to push their own style and preference onto a writer or onto characters, which is why I've actually avoided saying anything about this for some time. To me, though, it boils down to this, "To me, chuckling, giggling, laughing, snorting are all different actions. They fit people and situations. Tina slapped her forehead and giggled because she found herself a little silly at the moment, not frustrated or annoyed at herself at the oversight so she would groan." I absolutely agree with you. It's that agreement that has led to me being bothered by "chuckle". As you say, "One thing I could always agree was that I use chuckle quite often, just because there's no other fitting alternative." Because I think there is an alternative. For instance - "Turning his attention back to Tina, he chuckled to himself. “Now, things got a little bit harder.”" vs. Smiling as he turned back to Tina, he almost laughed from his surprise. "That does make things a bit harder!” To me, the second one captures the feeling that I get from the overall situation you have written more effectively. Why is a chuckle needed there to express his emotion? Why wouldn't his character just smile, (possibly in delight? excitement?), why does it have to be a chuckle there? And yes, the second one is obviously more in my voice, and I absolutely don't think it's quite right. I'm not saying you should have written it like that, I'm saying that there are other ways to describe and capture a "quiet laugh to oneself" than just plugging the word chuckle in. I guess, to me it's sort of the literary equivalent of a famous statement about music. Short version of the story - a very famous concert pianist was asked by another pianist how he managed to convey such powerful emotion and feeling in his music. The one asking the question stated, "I play the same songs, I play the same notes, but when I hear you play it feels different than anything I achieve. What do I need to do to get better?" The answer he was given was, "Ah, yes. The notes may be the same, but that's not what matters. The space between the notes, though... Ah!... That's where everything really starts to happen." It's the same thing here. Also, I do apologize if I gave the sense that you never use other descriptions, and I also know that my frustration with "chuckle" isn't at all unique to you. I've actually noticed a trend amongst a whole group of authors I follow where I've seen it getting overused, (I couldn't stand Grey/Arthur chuckling at Cara at the end of an otherwise great chapter TurtleMe released a month or two ago, for instance, and I love TurtleMe's writing). I also do recognize that you are thinking deeply about your characters because I can see that in the stories and the writing. If I didn't see it there, I wouldn't have read all of your stuff so far and wouldn't be a patron. It would be a waste of my time and money, and an insult to you, to read something I didn't find value in just to then try and insult it or force it into a direction I wanted instead. Heck, if I had a strong story of my own in mind, I'd try to write it myself, not throw mud an an author who is actually doing the hard work and constantly bringing me joy. :) (and yes... I've written some... badly... really badly... I'm a much better editor, unfortunately, for all that I would love to have stories of my own to tell). It's only because I can tell that you are thinking about those things, and that you do care about the characters that I finally decided to bring it up. It really does feel like your descriptions of the characters happiness is a bit too constrained. It's not that you should never use "chuckle" or "giggle" or whatever else... It just that I struggle to believe, given the flexibility of the English language, that there aren't more ways to express some of these emotions with more breadth and subtlety. All that out of the way.... "The anxiety never goes away. It's a constant part of my life. To the point where in future works I mostly try to literally avoid sentences where I have to use any kinds of laugh other than normal to not have people take it incorrectly, which isn't honestly possible :P" Great gobs of flaming excrement!!! Don't even consider that! Also, please, please, please!!! If I'm adding anxiety to you, then just delete my comments completely and commit to your mind that I'm a horrible troll and you should never listen to a word from me again! I don't want you to feel anxious, and I'd hate myself if I caused you to start second guessing your writing. That's why I wanted to emphasize how much I DO like the stories you are writing, (I've read through everything you have posted here on Patreon). I understand and respect how much of oneself goes into creating anything, much less something as intimate as the stories you write. My feedback is honestly coming from a place of deep respect and appreciation, nothing else. Even so, if it isn't useful to you, or if you think it is misplaced or misguided, I won't be at all offended is you simply tell me to fuck off and dismiss it entirely. At the end of the day, these are your stories that you are telling us. I thank you for your sharing of them, and if my thoughts are not useful then I'll be the first to support you in discarding them completely.

FeyOne

With all due respect, I use chuckle, giggle, and similar words depending on the "character" of the character. Like chuckling fits Selene best as she does so softly, while she occasionally laughs like every person or even very sporadically giggles depending on the situation. Like giggling shyly fits Miria while she in turn chuckles sporadically. You might raise a fair point but this extremely depends on the reader. I've been told numerous times actually that giggling doesn't really fit male characters (which I don't exactly agree with and still use it whenever the words fit the situation), while in your case, it's similar but with chuckling. To me, chuckling, giggling, laughing, snorting are all different actions. They fit people and situations. Tina slapped her forehead and giggled because she found herself a little silly at the moment, not frustrated or annoyed at herself at the oversight so she would groan. I've thought about it much deeper than you might actually assume, since the very start of BIAW actually, which is like two years ago. And I've received various feedback regarding various aspects of the usage of those words. One thing I could always agree was that I use chuckle quite often, just because there's no other fitting alternative. All characters chuckle, giggle, snort, and all other laughs, just at various moments and various frequencies per each word. Due to the fact that chuckle fits most cases and occassions, the other uses lose visibility and it might look like they don't exist but I can assure you that if you went and reread things while specifically paying attention to them you would find quite some examples. Thank you for the feedback and yes, I think about such things literally during writing every single chapter. The anxiety never goes away. It's a constant part of my life. To the point where in future works I mostly try to literally avoid sentences where I have to use any kinds of laugh other than normal to not have people take it incorrectly, which isn't honestly possible :P

Saileri

@Saileri, First, I love all of your stories. I wouldn't be a Patron if I didn't. So Please understand that it is in the context of me appreciating your work that I give the following feedback. I love this story... but one thing that has really started to bother me is the relentless use of the word, "chuckled"..... "Asterios chuckled", "he chuckled", "he chuckled", "he chuckled".... Does Asterios never laugh? Is he never actually happy? Is he incapable of a guffaw? A giggle? A snort? Is he incapable of glee? Even worse than the lazy reliance on a single word to describe almost everything is the timing for when he chuckles. The lack of any depth in describing his amusement is more forgivable than the when of his amusement. Often, he responds to the love or affection of someone by 'chuckling' in response to their feelings and the situation. Likewise, he 'chuckles' at the efforts of those he cares for, or chuckles at their honest excitement? The timing of those things is often such that it doesn't communicate anything like care or affection and instead comes across as patronizing. For instance, "Asterios chuckled to himself and followed them after nodding at Tina’s parents. He had a feeling someone would need to make sure the two don’t stray away from their path to her home too much." So the princess and his fiancee need him to make sure they stay on track because someone has to be the adult around these children? I don't think that is what you intended to convey, yet, the use of "chuckled" in there shifts it into that direction. Especially when put in the larger context of the writing, because thought Asterios may never do anything but chuckle, right across from him we have Tina... who giggles... As irritating as I've come to find the word, "chuckled", I'm starting to loath giggling. Even more, it seems that just as much as Asterios is incapable of doing anything other than chuckling, the women around him are often incapable of doing anything other than giggling. And adding to the sense of patronizing is, again, the timing of many of these giggles... "“Oh, right.” Tina giggled and slapped her forehead. " As brilliant as Tina is, why didn't she slap her forehead and groan while expressing how she should have thought of that? Why was she trapped in doing nothing but giggling? She's exhausted, she just gave her absolutely best trying to impress and surprise her love, and trying to show him off to the world at the same time. She's excited, thrilled, but also focused and flirty... and when surprised with something simple she didn't think about..... she giggles??? That all said, don't get me wrong. I do like this story. I really do. That said, I also think you are limiting yourself as a writer and getting lazy as you deal with the emotional aspects of your characters. Please don't be another of those authors who ends up reducing all of the women in the MC's 'harem' to nothing more than shallow extensions of the MC, brainlessly in love and blindly worshipful towards him... Love is blind, not stupid. Tina's speech was fantastic. Let her, and the others, stay fantastic. Let them be Asterios' true partners, not his amusing, and chuckleworthy, pets. Especially because now, at this point of the story, where there are so many people involved in the main actions going on, if any of them aren't written respectfully then it actually detracts from the story and starts to break the plausibility. It's a great story, it can be even better though by just taking the time to be a bit more thoughtful about the emotions of the characters and how they are expressing them. Giving their emotions more breadth will also deepen the story. Anyway, again, I hope this isn't received badly. I know how difficult writing is, and I know how hard it is to put together a good story. So I hate to see such good stories starting to be drug down by something that is actually really easy to address in your writing, (really... just start by being more aware of "chuckled" and any giggling... I'd encourage yourself to turn those words into triggers pause yourself a bit at that point of the story and think more deeply about what you actually want to convey at those points). Thank you again for your great work, and I look forward to future chapters.

FeyOne

I do hope at least one council member doesn't take this kind of insult/shame lying down!

Damn fine chapter!!!! Tina surprised me at the end with her speech. Good for her and good for her to invite Silvia. I bet Silvia will tell Tina that she is part of Asterios’ party too.

Looooooved this!!! I kind of wish that all of Ast’s familiars showed themselves after or during Tina’s final speech to emphasize the point but I understand the ceremony itself was supposed to be about her. I just would have loved to read all the “omg, we really F’ed up” reactions when all the badass and raging summons appeared at his sides. Either way though, loooooooooved it!

Darth Mole

And Roz has been roped into attending. 😆

Termac

Awesome ending of sparing match! That’s one way to tell the council to sit on it! Ok party at Tina’s house!

Ralph

just perfekt

Ivo Wißen

Yes! Fuck the council! Now I can’t wait to see Tina go dungeon crawling with them. Having her up front with Miria is gonna be awesome.

A wonderful finish to the fight. I like Tina's boldness with her ending speech about Ast. Though I bet he would have told her it was unnecessary to do so for him. Great chapter!

David Hoerner

I want to ride a winged lion! That would be AWESOME! Great chapter!

Tanner Lovelace