EPISODE 12 PT 2: THE COLLAPSE OF THE TOWER
Added 2024-04-02 00:34:39 +0000 UTCThe core of this theory. Following our close examination of possibility and significance in Part 1, this odyssey of an episode seeks to tackle what, precisely, could cause a breakdown in significance and the flattened landscape of the world of depression. This is followed by a close examination, finally, of The Tower, how it controls our lives, and what it might look like for it to collapse. We explore this question from a variety of disciplines, ranging from psychology to philosophy, neuroscience to metaphysics, self-development doctrines to phenomenology. We cover the difference between grief and depression, radical elsewheres, value hierarchies, self-esteem, learned helplessness, the core fundamentals of all self-help approaches, beliefs, the infinite vs the eternal, dopamine, and how left hemisphere dominance in the brain has impacted our relationship with reality. This episode ties together the ideas of thinkers like phenomenologist Matthew Ratcliffe, the researchers behind Hanging On & Letting Go, Jordan Peterson (who we'll be critiquing), Federico Campagna, Iain McGhilchrist, Fred Previc, and, of course, Carl Jung. We end on the possibility of building a garden instead of a tower... world-esteem in place of self-esteem.
Because this is the longest episode of this series, I've elected to split it into parts, with two breaks:
Part 1: The World of Depression, Revisited (2:38)
Part 2: The Tower (54:00)
Part 3: The Architects of The Tower (1:36:00)
Finally, thank you for your patience. This episode took an exceedingly long time and a lot of work to craft—I hope that it is helpful, and makes up for the relative radio silence during March. There was simply no cutting corners with this material, and, given the length, I wanted to make sure it was as clear as possible. I'm so excited to hear what you all think of it, and want to make sure I can answer your remaining questions in part 3. Don't let the length scare you—if you utilize the breaks it should be easier to follow than Part 1. Also, with this very time-intensive episode out of the way, I can finally turn my attention back toward the Nekyias series and admin tasks—please let me know what topics you'd like to see covered in the future!
Comments
If it feels any better - I have ADHD and didn't even noticed anything (sounds like a joke but really). Dopamine is really popular explanation for number of things today. I kind of believe it but it may be another "Labirynth" case. I know stimulant medication is helpful for me but at the same time I became over reliant on it (like shifting responsibility from me to meds). I mean it's sensitive topic - up to some point there is also problem with society medicalizing weakness as well as difference because machine need standardized and predictable parts to run smoothly. Why we agree on privileged people to decide what's normal? I agree that there is some line beyond which there's only suffering but before that line I think it's more about money-power dynamic :)
Bartłomiej Konopka
2025-04-02 18:50:38 +0000 UTCChrist I finally listened to the third segment of this episode while on a cold nightwalk in the woods and I am shaken
Arcane Wit
2025-01-02 03:51:48 +0000 UTCHi Sarah, thank you for your response. Reading it helped me have a greater understanding of what you were trying to convey and brought that necessary nuance to the segment on Previc's work - which I admit I'm completely unfamiliar with and have not read. In terms of my reference to scapegoating - I too need to be clearer otherwise it sounds very drastic and somewhat harsh. What I was clumsily alluding to is that it came across in the episode like reducing autism or adhd (or indeed some serious mental challenges that you mentioned) to Dopamine elevation - feels to me anyway - dehumanising. When this occurs and certainly in this society it's just another label to exclude and essentially 'cast out'. I am probably projecting my own anguish at some of the behaviour I myself have witnessed with regards to my daughter or the subject of Autism in general. Along the lines of - If it's not the vaccines then its the Dopamine or the Cortisol or whatever. Thus neurodivergent people can get discussed like some kind of aberration as opposed to living breathing sentient beings desperate to belong and be included just like many of us want to too. I hope I'm making sense and don't come across as too brusque. I'm truly not in real life (!) , but there is no doubt that life experiences have marked and wounded me. I really appreciate your response. I hope our dialogue here in the comments adds a little extra dimension to the Previc section. I'm genuinely struck by the series and have enjoyed it tremendously. It's very dense, very complex so I will probably listen to the whole thing again to mine more gems in the peace of my garden while drinking my morning coffee.
LR
2024-07-29 22:02:44 +0000 UTCHi LR! I have to admit it was a bit distressing seeing a comment like this—I would never hope to paint autism (or ADHD, or any form of neurodivergence for that matter, given the state of the research) in any kind of negative light. You are also completely right to point out the issues with sloppily lumping autism (and again, ADHD) into the "disordered" camp. I'm familiar with the discourse around diversity vs disorder and probably should have been much more careful and nuanced with my language. Part of the mistake on my end, I think, is that I forget the punctuation I use when writing my scripts may not directly translate or separate ideas appropriately when actually speaking/delivering the script. You're also totally right to point out the issues with gender when it comes to research and how diagnostic criteria are created (which does often lead to the exclusion of girls). My apologies for any discomfort this may have caused, either to you or anyone else. With all of that said, I'd like to clarify what I had hoped to communicate in that section, as I'm not totally sure I fully understand how I came across as scapegoating. I have to imagine, based on your comment, that this may have something to do with linking Autism to elevated levels of dopamine, perhaps just after exploring issues with our contemporary culture (which I also linked to dopamine). To be clear, Previc's argument is not at all that neurodivergence/mental illness is the result of some kind of moral failing or "dopamine addiction." Quite the opposite—the point he makes is that the structure of our society has lead to hyper-competition and the absolute necessity of being able to look out and predict/strategize for the future. What he's saying is that dopamine levels may have been forced upward in *everyone* alive today, because dopamine is what allows us to cope and survive in these conditions. He's essentially saying that this elevation of dopamine may play a role in all of our lives today, but that certain individuals may be more acutely impacted by it. To be clear, I do not at all think Previc's model is the end-all-be-all theory of autism, but it *is* a very fascinating perspective on how neurochemistry can be impacted by culture. It was my mistake, I think, to just throw his theory in there at the very last minute without allowing the time required to provide the necessary nuance. To be honest, I was mainly just trying to fit all of the connections I saw into a single episode, which was getting very long by the time I got to Previc. In the future, I hope to do an episode better explaining some of his work, as well as looking at alternative theories. Finally, I have been meaning to read Neurotribes—I believe I'm pretty familiar with the overall argument of that book as its very popular among the people I follow, but would probably help me create more careful language going forward. Thank you for your comment—the last thing I would want to do is to alienate the very people I'm trying to help!
Sarah Mergen
2024-07-29 20:27:24 +0000 UTCI have really enjoyed your series. I have found myself nodding in agreement and sometimes been opened up to a new prospective, which is invaluable. I thank you for that. I am also a mother of an autistic young woman. Honestly Sarah, the statement you made referencing Previc’s book about dopamine and autism felt like a punch that came out of nowhere. No one actually knows how Autism came to be or indeed ADHD. it is still a source of mystery. I would urge you to read neuro tribes by Steven Silberman for a more nuanced view . it’s a very sobering read. The connection between dopamine and autism is hypothesis it is not fact. Equally there are other hypotheses about autism and one of which is the role of cortisol. ADHD is sometimes linked to trauma - also hypothesis. Autism is also not a mental illness. It is a neuro divergent way of seeing the world. One thing that has hurt my daughter profoundly is the amount of labelling she has been subjected to. I would wager that any neuro divergent person listening to the last 15 minutes of this episode would be hurt by it. By the way the assessment model for autism was very much put together with autistic boys in mind. Up until very recently and certainly up until the 1970s at least Autism was regarded only to be present in boys - hence the disparity in diagnoses, for the female portion of the population (Silberman goes into some detail about this in his book) Please tell me that I completely misinterpreted you because what I heard was a labelling and scapegoating of the most disenfranchised, socially lonely and depressed portion of the population. Those who simply do not fit in. What I heard was the dopamine addiction of a goal oriented culture has resulted in mental illness and we call that autism, ADHD etc (I won’t comment on the others Previn lists because I have no experience of them). Where I might find some common ground with you is that, if anything, neuro divergence is potentially the proverbial canary in the coal mine of a pendulum that has swung too far in the wrong direction and even that is hypothesis.
LR
2024-07-29 16:57:25 +0000 UTCI just wanted to express my gratitude for all your hard work and for finding the words for what I could only gesture towards for my entire adult life. This episode was phenomenal. Thank you for turning on a light for me.
Fabiola Curion
2024-06-23 17:50:03 +0000 UTCSarah - I’m not even all the way through this episode. In fact, I’m on my first “break”. And I feel shock and awe at how brilliantly you have constructed a theory that is spot on with my lived experience. It’s incredibly sophisticated and I just absolutely admire your audacity to take on this project - it honestly gives me hope that all my meanderings on Jung, consciousness, mental health, mental wellness, mysticism, astrology etc. will coalesce in some new and exciting ways that don’t have to stuck in strictly one discipline or confined to academic settings. I first heard you on Third Eye Drop podcast and after that episode I bought Catafalque and devoured the whole thing. Thank you for sharing your philosophy with the world.
Dara
2024-06-12 02:49:47 +0000 UTCThank you Sarah, brilliant and illuminating.
Rich Lamb
2024-06-08 18:53:27 +0000 UTCHaven't heard of Previc before now so will take a look - I finished Ratcliffes depression phenonomenlogy book earlier in the year and still riding the waves of what it meant to me. It's been such a inspiring process to encounter this world of ideas and to see you courageously pursue something diferent, or rather shine light on the elsewhere. I hope you continue to get your ideas out there for as long as it's right for you!
Yehudi Saling
2024-06-08 07:02:16 +0000 UTCI so appreciate your response! I agree that it's not absolutely necessary (convenient for me so I can decide to leave it if need be) but also respect and trust your process for who and what you've included to help lead the way through your ideas. I think the theory that he posits in emissaries is captivating but I guess what I am resistant to is where he locates it's origins (in the brain and it's structures) - to be honest I'm not really able to state what in particular I don't agree with as I've never delved enough to articulate it, but the way I framed him was belonging to an enduring line of people across the years who define neural structures as discrete things with particular functions, and in this case personalities, which I see as in conflict with a more dynamic systems or network view of the brain. I see this idea, particularly in relation to the hemispheres, rear it's head in many places and wonder if it isn't entrapping us to a dead ended line of thought - maybe belonging more to the materialist view. I'll have a look into his new project, I wasn't aware of it until now - especially interested in if he does adress these criticisms as you mention.
Yehudi Saling
2024-06-08 06:59:21 +0000 UTCAlso! might be worth looking into Previc—unless he was drawing from the same faulty research (which I think is unlikely given that he was looking at something completely different), his conclusions seem to add a bit more weight to the general idea behind McGhilchrist's work. To the best of my knowledge, Previc was not at all influenced by McGhilchrist and came to his own extremely similar theory independently
Sarah Mergen
2024-06-08 06:29:11 +0000 UTCDisagreement is always welcome and encouraged because it helps me refine the theory :) Mcghilchrist is included here largely because he helps flesh out the pattern, add some nuance, and maybe point to the neuroscientific basis of some of the ideas we're looking at here... with that said, I don't think he is absolutely necessary to the argument made in this episode. His work has definitely not been *proven,* nor is it really provable, in some ways, because half of it is more of a philosophy than a scientific hypothesis. I'm familiar with some of the criticisms, although I have personally not encountered anything definitive in terms of it being debunked. With that said, I'd absolutely welcome any resources/criticism you come across! Unfortunately I'm not totally able to address specific critique without knowing what exactly you're referring to, but my feeling about it generally is that he is probably wrong about quite a few things, AND that what he is trying to illuminate between the right/left perspectives might hold water on its own... even if it's not 100% based in the brain. He has continued his work in his latest massive project (The Matter with Things) which I have admittedly not yet read. What I do know is that his more recent work extends into metaphysical stances, which might elevate the discussion above a purely neuroscientific argument. Also I have to imagine (or at least hope) that he might address some of these criticisms in that work?
Sarah Mergen
2024-06-08 06:23:25 +0000 UTCWoah had another big moment of the feeling things come together in this episode - tho it was challenging me for encounter mcgilchrists theory in yours! A nice to chance for me to practice some nuance iand disagreeing with parts of something that you hold close (this series) It was my understanding that mcgilchrists theory wasn't really up to speed with modern neuroscience - not that means it's not useful, but would be keen to hear your understanding of this?
Yehudi Saling
2024-06-08 05:13:42 +0000 UTCGirl, I was snapping my fingers the whole time
Caroline McCarthy
2024-04-22 03:03:58 +0000 UTCThoroughly enjoying Federico C's opening gambit in his intto to Technic and Magic, Sarah. Just back from an invitation to visit the "Goddess of the Underworld", ie a nighttime descent via Grandmother Medicine, followed by a daytime dance with Grandfather Medicine (I know I'm talking kinda code, bear with me). Another letting go, and letting in, Love and Reality...a glimpse, and ongoing embodiment of, a Radical Elsewhere. Thank you, Sarah, for your wise, goddess-inspired words. 🌟
Rich Lamb
2024-04-13 08:33:39 +0000 UTCthis is so ridiculously kind and absolutely made my day!!!!!!!!!
Sarah Mergen
2024-04-08 20:58:41 +0000 UTCI just finished steppenwolf and i'm on demian and it seems to follow katabasis/anabasis path so far
friday
2024-04-05 18:51:34 +0000 UTCI love everything you've done in this series so far, but this... This is breathtaking. Honestly, a masterpiece that I wouldn't dare to imagine. Thank you, thank you, thank you so damn much, Sarah. It's a revelation for me with a life changing potential ♥️
Wiktoria
2024-04-05 18:38:22 +0000 UTCBeautiful episode, I love the way you draw together all these different threads - it makes so much sense and really resonates for me, thank you!
MiDo
2024-04-04 10:25:05 +0000 UTCyou could drop an 8-hour episode and i’d be clocked in <3 thank you so much for all your hard work
anna sammons
2024-04-03 15:04:46 +0000 UTCthank you so much for working on this, the places you're going with this series keep resonating so deeply with me and I'm beyond excited to see where you go next. also, the image of eternity as a verical line such a shockingly simple and beautiful way of putting something I've been trying to grasp at or explain for like years, and I don't think I'm going to be able to stop thinking about it for weeks
Jade A
2024-04-03 13:28:00 +0000 UTCEverytime you post it gives me a huge shot of Sarah-tonin 🤠😩
David
2024-04-02 18:44:01 +0000 UTCCannot thank you enough for everything you have done. I will keep repeating and touching back on this series I think xx
Emilia
2024-04-02 10:04:43 +0000 UTCOoo I can’t wait to listen to this episode later tonight 🙏 May I request a Nekyias episode on the anima/animus? You’ve touched on it briefly in this series and I’d love to know more about communing with the animus, integrating it, what that even looks like, if you have any real world examples of it (Jung or other people), and your personal experience or observations. Im currently reading Steppenwolf by Hermann Hesse which seems to be a narrative of a middle aged man encountering his anima, and how she brings him back to life 🫀 If you know of any literature or music that explores the anima or animus relationship I’d also love to hear your recommendations. I recently have started putting myself in new situations with the intention to experience new parts of my psyche. I did a freediving course in the open ocean, and it was terrifying and exhilarating. The current was so strong, and visibility was poor, but my instructor said he’d seen leopard sharks at the bottom. I was confronted with the vastness and raw power of the ocean. That night I had the most intense dreams, in which a masculine figure from my childhood was trying to kill me. Maybe the animus? Or another part of the shadow? It was very scary, but i feel better knowing it’s there than not knowing. All this is to say, your room analogy of depression has sent me on a journey to expand my physical horizons, and that is simultaneously expanding the horizons of my inner world. ☀️
Tasha
2024-04-02 03:33:45 +0000 UTC
