Bakemonogatari 1x5: "Mayoi Mai Mai, Part 3" // Reaction and Discussion
Added 2024-07-15 22:25:07 +0000 UTC00:00 Intro
01:16 Reaction to Show
17:31 Discussion
Comments
What should Japanese nerds like us do see ur reaction that seems so-called “the strongest combination of light and darkness.“ We may be strongly wishing for “the real life crowd to explode. “ That's what my Google translation says Ben-san, the hero of YouTube reactor👍
Isa Naka
2024-07-26 21:08:35 +0000 UTCYes, but fair warning for spoilers to anyone who doesn't want them. Also, it's a bit of a long ride, but Monogatari is too dense to put things simply lol. SPOILERS The thing that initially caused the interaction in this episode - Araragi accidentally grabbing her chest during the fight last episode - was unintentional. He clearly gives no thought toward it being sexual, shown by him bringing it up as a casual observation and not understanding why she is upset in return. In response, Hachikuji goes on an explicit tirade clearly inappropriate for a normal person of her age, which ends up pushing the conversation in that direction. He only escalates things in response to her prompts. (Not saying this excuses him, just pointing out the motivations of both characters). And no matter how negative the interaction looks to the viewer, the fact that it immediately defuses into stupid wordplay followed immediately by each of them opening up to each other about their issues is also important. On it's own, that understanding doesn't really add much depth to the scene, but comparing it to the future sexual scenes between the two and what we learn about their motivations, it makes a lot more sense. This whole interaction starts with some key dialogue: Araragi lamenting Karen's words, saying that he'll never grow up and no matter how old his body gets, he'll still always be a kid, to which Hachikuji points out that he's just like her. The whole series is about Araragi mourning/processing the loss of his own innocence and childhood as he is forced to grow up. Hachikuji has a mirrored story about mourning the loss of her adulthood because of her own premature death. Her mind has continued to mature, despite her body staying the same. They are the inverse of each other, and while Araragi feels constant shame/fear of his growing sexuality, Hachikuji has an intense desire to have those experiences and a deep frustration at knowing that she never will. Their relationship eventually becomes one where they're able to play with each other in a way that satisfies both of their desires for things missing from their lives. He gets to goof off with her and experience the type of bullshitting that he never got growing up without friends, and she gets an outlet to explore and openly express her sexuality, even if it's only through jokes and comedy. It takes time to eventually reach that fully realized point, but this is the first step along the way. The fact that their first time really opening up to each other and asking for help starts with escalated sexual harassment sets the tone for how they interact in the future. That's the main gist of the importance of this scene specifically, but since you also mentioned struggling with scenes like this in general, here are some other more... esoteric (to put it bluntly), examples that are fleshed out in other areas but still relevant here: The "camera" work and direction in this show are also big indicators of the characters' mindsets and motivations. What is shown, not shown, focused on, and kept to the sidelines are all important. Araragi's initial non-sexual perception of Hachikuji is also shown in the earlier episodes in this arc. When they are fighting and her skirt flips, unlike when this happens with other characters who he is attracted to (most notably Hanekawa), her underwear are paid absolutely no mind and treated as a neutral element. This dynamic changes as their relationship does and has some particularly interesting changes in Nise specifically, but that's too complex to get into here. Still worth paying attention to once they get there in the reaction though. In classic Monogatari fashion, as I was typing all of this out, I also just realized another massive way that this reflects on certain aspects of Araragi's character and his relationship with Hachikuji, although I haven't had the time to work out the full implications yet, so I'll just point it out for consideration. Comparing this scene to the non-fondling scene with Hanekawa in Kizu is also interesting. In that moment, he was unable to bring himself to touch her because of his sexual shame, making the initial accidental chest grab last episode an important "first" for him, no matter how he perceived it. Hachikuji not only being the first person he opened up to emotionally, but also being his first real "sexual" partner (if you can consider it that), also gives a lot of weight to the emotions of their future friendship and reinforces just how attached they get to each other. And finally, Araragi's loli bullshit. The thing I mentioned before about Araragi mourning his own lost childhood is explored a lot in his relationships with Shinobu, Hachikuji, and Yotsugi. They are the only lolis he really "pursues", because he isn't interested in children. All of them are immortal creatures with complicated relationships to their own mortalities, trapped in bodies at odds with their minds. Just like Hachikuji, he ends up developing... complicated relationships with the other two that explore similar sides of his own issues and helps them with their own struggles. However, while they are all immortal, the circumstances of their immortalities are all different and that reflects in the nuances of each relationship. I think this is the best example of "even if it's upsetting, don't ignore the details." It's not excusing or endorsing those relationships, just using them as abstract ways of exploring the different characters' mindsets.
Thomas Young
2024-07-23 22:13:53 +0000 UTCCan you say more on what this episode says about Araragi's character, to you? I've always struggled to understand what such scenes are meant to show us about Araragi. Honestly, for this specific episode, I thought it was more to emphasize the strangeness of nobody interceding, even though an assault was happening...as well as the tragedy of Hachikuji having no one to turn to besides the one who is assaulting her.
Jojiro
2024-07-23 08:51:25 +0000 UTCunderstanding,that's it,exactly! well, about that, family name was written in red on money. Well...it would be a bit boring to explain it directly^^; The incident (s) itself almost certainly happened before “nisioisin“ was born, but it seems the person died about 10 years ago. it means... so...well, it's hard to explain it in roundabout way(・・?) m,maybe 84th Akutagawa-Prize author inside, involved?(direct) sry for my poor Eng.
Isa Naka
2024-07-23 08:50:48 +0000 UTCNah, I would obviously binge them all when I unfreeze. :)
SmilePlease
2024-07-23 08:41:24 +0000 UTCyour new haircuts (both) look really good btw. Especially Anna. Although Ben you always had great hair ngl.
TerminuS
2024-07-23 07:58:41 +0000 UTCI agree with your assessment tho that some people could not take Senjo's attitude of calling people out and/or just say whats on her mind unabashedly and sometimes making jokes about other people's issues. In the same vein she is ofc also very self-aware and is making jokes at her own expense with people she is familiar with. But you are right to assume that would rub some people the wrong way. Those people would not wait to realize that she does the same to herself, but already be offended after the first part and then shut down incapable of realizing that is just how she is and that she is as self-aware as she is, maybe even harsher on herself sometimes. And yes I think it definitely would have to do with insecurities. The people who feel the most offended or angry about things other people (maybe even just jokingly or teasingly) say about them are the people who are often the most insecure or have specific things in life that they have real issues with and avoid thinking about them.
TerminuS
2024-07-23 06:36:04 +0000 UTCOne important thing to understand about Monogatari - and this is the first episode it becomes painfully obvious - is that there are often very uncomfortable moments that are borderline disgusting if you take them just at face value. That's no different from a lot of anime, but the thing that sets it apart is that it never portrays them mindlessly. It takes weird/off-putting tropes that other stories just blindly use for "comedy" or "fan service" and gives them serious narrative weight. To clarify, I don't mean that it criticizes them. It lets their negative aspects be self-evident and portrays them earnestly, leaning into the disturbing elements at the same time as it gives them serious thematic weight for the characters involved. Everything exists in an absurdist liminal space that doesn't pretend to reflect reality and is meant to be taken as elements of a story instead of a portrayal of real people. This isn't me excusing or endorsing the content. It's just a reminder that while you should realistically still feel uncomfortable while watching certain scenes, try not to take them as advocating for the acts they're portraying or dismiss their relevance to the characters. Take a step back and look at the details instead and you will get far more out of the show.
Thomas Young
2024-07-23 06:34:56 +0000 UTCIdk Ben, I mean I don't know you in real life, Im sure you have your issues, and quirks and eccentricities. But everybody does. You come across as someone who is being genuine and fun to be around. Idk why I would dislike you, no matter if as an entertainer (here online) or if I met your irl. Obviously there is people out there who would clash with your personality, just as much as there is people who would clash with mine or with Senjo's if she was real. Cant be liked by everyone that is impossible. I think if absolutely EVERYBODY likes/loves your the issue is that some of those people don't know you enough. It's the same way if everybody would dislike or hate you, some of them don't know you enough and wouldn't feel that way if they did.
TerminuS
2024-07-23 06:31:05 +0000 UTCbut then you will miss all the other great moments of the show
TerminuS
2024-07-23 05:32:58 +0000 UTCThis was the episode that made me realize that I was starting a very special journey.
Draka
2024-07-23 01:18:10 +0000 UTCDidn’t know about the money given to Hachikuji, thanks for pointing it out 😂 I’m sure that despite that Ive watched Monogatari many times, read online discussions about the episodes, and even know a little bit Japanese, that there are still many jokes like these that I keep missing. I think Autosave is still pretty new to picking up the nuances of the language that Monogatari uses. But they are very good at understanding characters, so I am sure this will be a great reaction series regardless☺️
Asbjørn Kennedy
2024-07-22 16:03:22 +0000 UTCrelax, we know...(・∀・)ｲｲﾈ!!
Isa Naka
2024-07-22 13:17:01 +0000 UTCIt's a Japanese joke... I want to delete the comment, but I'll leave it as "There's No Way I'll Ever Regret It" (〇ω〇) because it has a roundabout meaning. Sry its my 1st using Patreon, so, CSP...resources must be listed in the allowlist in order to be accessed...I am not sure, but I will do my better.
Isa Naka
2024-07-22 13:14:14 +0000 UTCI previously saw an Eng translation of MONOGARARI somewhere, in yellow text and seemed a little different. As a JPNese, I naturally expect that MONOGTARI is the top-class work that is impossible to translate, and I don't even know which translation is better. anyway difficult, but enjoy it I want. For one, the money given to Hachikuji (in a different unit), its original is so old that I can't imagine young JPNese would understand it. But, I think it would be more enjoyable for all if AutoSave-san could quickly become interested in small jokes and the rhyme or flow (something different) of the JPN dialogue.
Isa Naka
2024-07-22 12:56:37 +0000 UTCIdk if they read the comments a lot. But usually its free of spoilers about the show, because people are grown up enough to pay for a sub and be decent human beings (WE DONT TALK ABOUT THE POLL WARS a while ago XD.....) Anyways i think comments like this are good, cuz stuff like this and many other things ahead can be missed even on your second/third rewatch. So its good if they reading these or a mod presents it to them. Only if they want ofc, cuz i can see the hype about rewatching the show once its finally over with more knowledge or getting into the novels/manga.
Vladi
2024-07-21 12:38:18 +0000 UTC0:05のANNA-san の posing is cool❤️ こんなカッコ良いタンヤオの構えはリアルで見たことがないと思う
Isa Naka
2024-07-19 14:28:18 +0000 UTCIt's actually nice 2 comments I can relate to. I'm glad to see the love&deep understanding of MONOGATARI from overseas. anyway...I wonder how they understand so accurately(*⁰▿⁰*?)
Isa Naka
2024-07-19 14:20:19 +0000 UTCI took ur comments a little seriously, for it has more than 100 epis, so, that means 700days to finish 'zoku-owari' ^^; In addition, It may become more and more difficult to edit. so, ur suggestion to speed up at the beginning and certain stories maybe actually reasonsable. to avoid big burden for them, when there aren't any noteworthy works, it might be better to advance a few episodes not to prevent a drop in view-nunbers. Surely, this's also just to an extent.
Isa Naka
2024-07-19 14:02:55 +0000 UTCReally well explained. As so far to interpret the radicals themselves. The way I personally frame it as an attempt at English localization to make it nativity natural. It's the punny connection of Crushing on vs. Gushing for someone. Moe can be thought of having a Crush while the intensity of Tore can be thought as Gush. It's one thing to have a Crush and another thing to be Gushing in enthusiasm. It maintains the increased flowing and warming difference in language. Thats to say Araragi makes a call back to say he fawns for Senjougahara, a Gush.
CSteve
2024-07-17 05:21:05 +0000 UTCIn a recent r/anime poll Senjougahara won 6th place as best girl behind Makise Kurisu from Steins Gate (reigning champ), Maomao from the Apothecary Diaries, and Frieren, just including the ones you've watched on the channel. Beating out Kaguya from Love is War and Homura from Madoka Magica at 8 and 10 respectively. So I think it's safe to say people don't hate Senjougahara. At least not a lot.
Austin Yun
2024-07-17 04:00:00 +0000 UTCeverything ok over there? I clearly wasn't being serious...
Zombiie
2024-07-17 01:01:30 +0000 UTCyou guys that keep asking for more episodes a week are insane. they can hardly keep up with the current schedule, and you want them to post more? are you even aware of what is happening? i swear you monogatari fans.. give an inch take a mile
Nut Kon
2024-07-17 00:58:19 +0000 UTCThere's 100% people who hate Senjo, you just haven't seen enough comments about this anime on social media. Nothing is universally loved in this world.
Julliant
2024-07-16 20:22:24 +0000 UTC“No one hates senjou” you’ve clearly never been to twitter
ElectricAnt
2024-07-16 08:24:26 +0000 UTCGahara has plenty of haters, they’re just drowned out by the tore
ElectricAnt
2024-07-16 08:23:48 +0000 UTCAraragi makes a clever reference to Senjougaharas argument two episodes back, when she said that the kanji for “fascination” has a deeper meaning than “moe”, when his answer to her confession was that he hoped it would catch on. A thorough explanation and possible interpretation is provided here by reddit user /u/theelitenub: Adding on to what's been said already, In EP 3 Senjougahara talks about how moe is a form of attraction/charm, to which she believes mitoreru (fascination) is a level above that. She explains how both -tore (the 2nd kanji in mitoreru) and moe are written in kanji using the grass radical (蕩 for -tore and 萌 for moe, the grass radical is the 艹 part), and implies that the way -tore is written makes it like a deeper form of moe. You can interpret this how you want, but I'll give my own perspective as a Chinese person (kanji are Chinese characters after all, even if their meanings can differ in Japanese). Chinese/Kanji 101: Much like English has prefixes/suffixes that change the meaning of words, Chinese has radicals. The grass radical 艹 usually implies a relationship to well, literal grass, growing, nature, and things of that sort. I don't really know what 蕩 means in Chinese, but underneath the radical is the character for soup (湯, which roughly translates to hot water in Japanese kanji). 萌 means to bud/sprout, and underneath the radical is the character for bright (明). Let's start with moe 萌. Moe is like a flash of attraction. Attraction is something rooted in your head, planted if you will (keeping with the grass theme). When plants are exposed to sunlight, they grow. Thus, it makes sense that 萌 means to bud/sprout when we combine the radical and the base character. I don't know how it ended up being the kanji for moe, but it's not a leap when we think of it as attraction being implanted inside of you. Next, we have tore 蕩. Like I said before, 湯 roughly translates to "hot water". Well, when we add water to grass, it also grows, so what makes it deeper than moe? Well, you normally encounter hot water in a bath of some sort. During a bath, you relax and let your body soak in the nurturing water—It's something you take your time with. I described moe as a flash of attraction due to it being written with "bright" 明. If it's only a flash, it's not that deeply rooted in the first place (after all, even the most brilliant lights will cease to burn). However, water is something that sticks around longer. You turn off your lamp and it gets dark, but water takes time to dry out. There are also plants that can grow in the dark, so you could argue that water is more nurturing than light overall. Thus, fascination is more deeply rooted in your mind than simple moe attraction is. Taking all of this in, we can maybe see what Senjougahara was thinking when she suggested the next generation abandon moe for tore. In the end, it's Araragi who makes the incredibly suave callback when he describes himself as having Senjougahara Tore. Awesome writing by NisiOisin here.
Asbjørn Kennedy
2024-07-16 08:10:46 +0000 UTCI cant wait drop 7 episodes a week T_T
Zombiie
2024-07-16 07:26:14 +0000 UTCI need someone to freeze me for 6 weeks. I can't wait to see Anna's reaction to episode 11.
SmilePlease
2024-07-16 06:55:52 +0000 UTC? we like or admire Ben-san, at least on the internet. Acturelly You have so many fans and l singed up patreon for only this ch^_^
Isa Naka
2024-07-16 04:57:26 +0000 UTCSenjougahara is fairly beloved in the anime community. So much so that she finished in the top 4 of the anime subreddit Best Girl contests twice and won their Best Character contest in 2016 (she is actually excluded from more recent contests because she already won). This series altogether has an absurdly deep roster of phenomenal characters.
Melty154
2024-07-16 04:11:11 +0000 UTCYeah! The idea of 'Liking something that is fictional' does NOT mean you approve of it in any way in Real Life is super important!! On an unrelated note: I can't wait for Nadeko 😭
Skeletan
2024-07-16 03:40:05 +0000 UTCHow could anyone NOT love Senjougahara?!? ;-)
Stonewielder
2024-07-16 03:05:50 +0000 UTCi agree they're discussions are good. but in the later seasons it's going to be soo great
TheMightyAnt
2024-07-16 02:33:46 +0000 UTCnise episdoe 8 lets go
TheMightyAnt
2024-07-16 02:32:49 +0000 UTCThis makes me happy. I'm always impressed with how perceptive and articulate you both are. The journey is just starting, and you already deeply understand the characters; it's going to make the rest of the series so enjoyable. It's going to be tough waiting a week in between episodes but it's worth it :)
Russell Gambardella
2024-07-16 02:22:16 +0000 UTCI think Kizu 3 will be the biggest hurdle. From what I've seen they're mostly OK watching comedic and goofy sexuality, even if it's explicit or weird. They seem to get way more uncomfortable when there's genuine lewdness and sensuality on screen. That one scene may just be too much for them.
JPUT
2024-07-16 02:20:05 +0000 UTCEveryone is best girl until the real best girl shows up. "MEAT!"
Justin_IVIX
2024-07-16 00:28:58 +0000 UTC"It's always a different case when it's a fictional character compared to if you were to meet someone in real life that did the same thing. Someone could be a total red flag in anime and people would still simp over them." I have no idea what you're talking about. ... Bondrewd best dad.
7thdilemma
2024-07-16 00:12:42 +0000 UTCyea i'm almost done with second season and i knw what arc you are talking about.... and i love it. honestly its hard to say which arc is best arc
TheMightyAnt
2024-07-15 23:52:28 +0000 UTCConversation this episode about how Araragi would help anyone will make for a nice callback during Kizu
RRGI
2024-07-15 23:44:37 +0000 UTCand thats not even a roast, but a weak arc, except its not.
Morkt
2024-07-15 23:42:22 +0000 UTCNo, no one hates senjo. theres many more characters and only one of them is sometimes hated, The deeper you get the harder it is to say who best girl is
Morkt
2024-07-15 23:40:21 +0000 UTClol It will take 2 years and a half taking into account the current airing season but it is what it is, their discussion is so good
Ecodude
2024-07-15 23:31:20 +0000 UTCyeah she's the best. All the charachers are amazing but Senjougahara is the one for me too. I also love Shinobu, but is not the same and for different reasons but tbf best girl title goes to the con artist.
Ecodude
2024-07-15 23:29:48 +0000 UTCi love senjougahara so much + i love how much you guys love her and enjoy her and araragi's dynamic. and that "i want to rewatch the last 3 episodes so much right now" is such a mood--monogatari is one of those series that is SO rewatchable and you pick up new things + understand more with every rewatch, and each part of each season lends new context to everything that comes before it. it's such a masterclass of storytelling
Alix
2024-07-15 23:19:45 +0000 UTCHow dare you think people would hate Hitagi, Ben!! Senjougahara is great, she's just a little... extra... and watch out for pencils and staplers around her. She IS John Wick.
Ragged Sunbeam
2024-07-15 23:18:25 +0000 UTCHappy ending and even happier beginnings, Now how will Anna-ragi and Ben-gougahara react to an unexpected “Rival” peaceful tidings or gut busting dialogue now put on your raincoats and make your wishes for the next episode of Auto-monogatari
Onemangang2059
2024-07-15 23:15:26 +0000 UTCThis was the episode that made me fall in love with this series like 5 years ago, and it's still my favorite anime. You guys are in for such a great series.
Vintage
2024-07-15 23:11:14 +0000 UTCIt will be a pain to wait a week lool
Leonardo Penazzi
2024-07-15 23:08:34 +0000 UTCKizu will prepare them, I have faith lol
Loayza
2024-07-15 23:07:26 +0000 UTCOh god the start of Arararagi shenanigans lmao I wonder how they'll react to nise
Ecodude
2024-07-15 22:59:23 +0000 UTCPeak is back
Loayza
2024-07-15 22:26:29 +0000 UTC
