Attack on Titan 4x16: "Above and Below" // Early Reaction and Discussion

Personally, I think that mod was off base deleting your comment. The comment section is there for active discussion and people should feel free theorizing. As long as it's not blatant spoilers, it should be fine. By your (and that mods) logic we cannot even discusss basically anything they talk about in the discussion section. Imagine if they theorize that Makima is a devil and you reply to that by agreeing to it and adding to why you think the same. By your logic if that happens to be true, that constitutes a spoiler.. that's just not the case, my guy. You could've very well predicted she's a fiend or whatnot and made arguments for that. As for my comment I told you that I just repeated Ben's theory. Specifically the part in my comment that you're hyperfocusing on was me reiterating Ben's theory (that he most heartedly believes, he said). That is.... I quote "Armin realizing, through her (Yelena) talking, what Erens real plan is. And that it's different from what she knows to be Zeke's plan (sterilizing Eldians). And his realization that what happened in their last interaction, Eren was still there somewhere." To agree to and substantiate a theory, I would have to repeat, yes? I said I also thought Armin realized Eren would never go with Zeke's plan (I.e. sterilizing eldians) If I did not have the exact wording would you have felt compelled to comment and call me names? "I also strongly believed your theory, Ben! Something to the add to the idea that Eren has different plans, is the fact that Carla's last words contradict Zeke's plan. (To me) this is what Armin realized." Would this be any different? I think you probably wouldn't have even thought of commenting if you didn't see the exact words. It's contextually the same, however. Aside from reiterating a theory, I only added what exactly I thought Armin would've been realizing, which Ben didn't bring up. Is me reminding then of Carla's quote the spoiler? Would you think its a spoiler had I said "I disagree with your theory Ben. Remember Carla's last words? It contradicts Zeke's ideology. To me, Armin cried because he realized the friend he knew is actually gone. Since Eren is planning to euthanize the Eldians, this means he has truly changed." So here, basically all context are the same as my original comment. It still mentioned Ben's theory. It mentioned Carla's words. Only difference is the interpretation from Armin's side. And like I said, I was theorizing on what Armin was thinking, not what Eren is gonna do. There is a difference. Because (as far as I'm aware) it was not shown in the anime what exactly Armin was thinking. So basically I was on the same boat as you when you commented that post you're talking about, because i dont know either. But in the end I don't even know why I'm still trying to debate someone who resorts to calling people names when confronted. Seems like instead of thinking for yourself you just adapted that mod's toxic mindset, trying to curate the comment section yourself. I literally said you didn't even have to delete your comment, since Ben and Anna wouldn't read it. We could've left it at that and agreed to disagree in what constitute as a "spoiler", instead you retort back by being rude and condescending, which led to this toxic fucking thread. I wouldn't have minded a discussion about what constitutes a spoiler. Seems pretty interesting, but this has just turned into a shit show. Let's just pretend neither of us exist in this creator's channel, because this is not productive at all. Have a good year, nonetheless.

Joshua

Lastly, let me share with you a true story about me being in your shoes/alleged situation... it happened recently when I made a comment on another react channel about Makima's eyes (from chainsawman idk if you watch it, I never read mangas so I only know what I know from the anime) that seemed a plausible theory to me since ep1 and guess what? my comment got deleted by a mod which sadly in the process all it does is indirectly confirm the theory I had which in turn the one that ended up spoiled was me LOL. (The mod was in the right to delete my comment if that's something that will be revealed in future episodes)

Ego Jinpachi

"Let us rephrase what I said. (without changing its context, mind you.)" You don't need to do any of that, do you think ppl who haven't watched past 4x16 are going to read every wall of text you've made after the first reply defending why your spoilers are not necessarily spoilers? "I had been convinced that Armin cried because he realized that Eren would never want to participate in sterilizing the Eldians. After all, the last words of Eren’s late mother were that being born into this world makes a person special. His tears (to me) symbolizes that, for the first time in years, he finally understands his friend." I already answered this, the fact you figured it out before everyone else doesn't make it ok to type what is going to happen in future episodes, regardless of the circumstances, you have trouble understanding this 101 rule of spoiling, dude you are so in the wrong you didn't even try to type that in a less spoilery way, you literally bluntly typed what is going to happen on screen one of the worst way possible, it wouldn't have been ok either way but godddam you don't give yourself any wiggle room on your favor, your first reply has unforgivable spoilers and your focus is in trying to convince ME 10 replies down instead of fricking editing out the spoiler parts and be done with this. "My response emphasizes that I also had a similar theory and then ADD to this by repeating ESTABLISHED things within the anime. NAMELY, that Carla’s last words through Keith, completely contradicts Zeke’s plan implying that this is what Armin realized. " Already answered this as well, I gave you a counterexample of why doing that is opening a can of worms, I can also pick and choose certain dialogues or scenes on the show that could justify a spoilery reply of a yet-seen episode, that doesn't make it ok to type them, again that's your main issue. "You respond to this by implying that Eren is in fact going to double cross Zeke in the episodes to come" No shit sherlock, got a taste of your own medicine?... Guess what... I'm replying to a comment that has spoilers, at that point the jig is up for the rest of the conversation unless you delete your comment, mine is redundant.

Ego Jinpachi

Let us rephrase what I said. (without changing its context, mind you.) I had been convinced that Armin cried because he realized that Eren would never want to participate in sterilizing the Eldians. After all, the last words of Eren’s late mother were that being born into this world makes a person special. His tears (to me) symbolizes that, for the first time in years, he finally understands his friend. This is a direct response to Ben. Who said in the discussion that his heart leans the most on the theory that Armin cried because... (paraphrasing this) Armin, through hearing Yelena’s speech, realized what Eren’s real goal is and how this does not align with Zeke’s. (i.e. sterilizing all Eldians) And that Eren was still himself even after their last interaction. My response emphasizes that I also had a similar theory and then ADD to this by repeating ESTABLISHED things within the anime. NAMELY, that Carla’s last words through Keith, completely contradicts Zeke’s plan implying that this is what Armin realized. You respond to this by implying that Eren is in fact going to double cross Zeke in the episodes to come. My comment, on the other hand, reiterates established things to theorize about Armins response. Is it really why he cried? Is Eren actually still there? Who knows, right? But that is what I thought the reason was, and I agreed with something that Ben strongly believes (According to their discussion). Go about it however you want. But my comment did not in fact state that Eren is gonna double cross Zeke. I only implied that this is what Armin believed, hence his reaction. Youre the one that spoiled it. But you aren't gonna accept that. Let this be my final rebuttal, because if this does not convince you, i dont know what will.

Joshua

"Eren would NEVER choose to participate in sterilizing the Eldians" I can't possibly think of a more malicious spoiler than that which is the focal point of the next arc, he can claim good faith and go to heaven all he wants, but it doesn't change the fact he's the one that typed that NOT me. @Noc if my comment saying his comment is a spoiler, which simultaneously means his comment had spoilers, then I'm sorry, I can't think of a way to point out someone is spoiling while at the same time not making it obvious his comment has spoilers, which in turn means they shouldn't have posted said comment in the first place with that avoiding my follow-up spoilery reply.

Ego Jinpachi

Don't worry Joshua, it's clear that you didn't actually spoil anything. It's sad that Ego doesn't delete his comments since his actually spoil stuff.

Noctislolig

Keep on keepin' on, my dude. Ignore all the arguments and rant on. See ya

Joshua

🤦‍♂️ just because you allegedly thought about all those things that coincidently happen to come true, in real time back then... somehow gives you the license to spoil? if you type something that happens in future episodes, it is a spoiler regardless of the circumstances. If you want to brag about that fact just wait until that episode is posted then you do no harm, it's not like you spoiled some minor stuff either, it's literally the major plot twist double cross of the next arc, you just don't give away what happens in exchange for praise, validation or whatever you are trying to achieve with that post.

Ego Jinpachi

You know there is a difference between calling out a plot point that has never been established before, i.e, the Rumbling and literally character assessment? I said that based on Eren's actions and past conversations, it is very very unlikely that he would participate with Zeke's plan. Am I wrong? You dont need hindsight for that my dude. Its like saying "Oh I dont think Armin would like getting the Colossal over Erwin". That is technically true. But predicting that is not a spoiler, since its a CHARACTER ASSESSMENT. Call me a smartass all you want, you still spoiled it by confirming it to be true. Its like replying to my hypothetical statement with "Oh yea, dont assume that Armin wouldn't like getting the Colossal, that is literally gonna happen next couple episode" 🤡. I wasn't even trying to argue with you. All I said was that your comment was literally a spoiler, but youre too much of a headass to just accept it. And like I said. That was literally my thought process after my initial viewing. LITERALLY no hindsight needed. Your logic about it being inappropriate after having watched the rest of season 4 is literally invalid at that point. For all you know I have not seen it yet, because literally all the facts I mentioned were already established and based on these facts, assumptions were made. But clearly youre too arrogant to consider facts. Farewell, my dude. Have a good year.

Joshua

You can play marty mcfly all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that what you typed is what happens in future episodes and you know that and should know better, By that logic I could say I knew the rumbling was going to happen since s1 ending when I saw the titan inside the wall, even if that's true, it's not appropriate to type it having watched all aired episodes and/or having read the manga, you are just being a smartass.

Ego Jinpachi

I remain eternally triggered. When they went back to watch the tease yet someone had told them to skip the first half of it I was apoplectic. If anything that would have been fine to watch even before S3pt2. Absolutely no reason they shouldn’t have watched it, and no reason they still couldn’t now 🤦‍♂️

hman70

Spoiler for part 2, ig guess: To be fair, Ravor did list a few ways that that line could be interpreted. To add to that, there is also the perspective from the rest of the world. The global alliance is literally only fighting against Paradis because of the looming threat of the rumbling (After Willys speech). "Rumbling its coming" could very be interpreted as their fear of the rumbling. It doesn't have to mean that it will happen (in any scale, whatsoever). But either way, I think we all agree the visuals should be skipped lmao.

Joshua

"I had been convinced". Meaning a state of being convinced in the past, and not necessarily the present. Even without hindsight, that is how I interpreted it after initial viewing. It was my "past" interpretation of Armins actions and it was "just interpretation" until you basically confirmed it to be true with your comment. But hey, you dont have delete your comment. Its not like Ben and Anna read it anyway. The mods do.

Joshua

Yeah, the intro gets you in the mood for the episode, it's sad the circumstances around it, I'm fine with either decision, but they have expressed in the past how they prefer not to watch intros if it has potentially spoilers and this one has the most out of all of them imo. I don't think the lyrics "r... is coming" is open to interpretation.

Ego Jinpachi

The word theory is past the midway point of that text, well after all the spoilers had been typed, it's the equivalent of someone writing a believable story and as the last sentence they nullify everything with "it was just my theory, nothing about it is necessarily true".

Ego Jinpachi

Also, I am still triggered that they didn't get to enjoy the outro glitch from the end of season 3 because of people warning them not to. Best warning people could give them on that would be just not to scrub frame by frame and overanalyze it. And to be fair, even if they do it frame by frame, it contains hardly any spoiler without hindsight.

Joshua

Youre right Ravor. It is a pretty second nature to them to assume that the intro visuals should not be watched. They did that with season 4 part 1 aswell, not knowing if it contains spoilers. But the extra emphasis people give to avoiding specific lines in the audio.. well that gives more away than just letting them hear it. Youre right. Hearing the audio unbiased, would open it up to way more interpretations.

Joshua

Im talking about how I felt watching this episode? Hence, my use of the word "theory". Ben had a similar theory, so I commented on that and how I felt the same. Your comment is actually what spoils it.. do not confirm or deny any speculations. Maybe delete it.

Joshua

Hear you and respect you, I know we both just want them to have the best experience possible. Just imo it’s not worth putting the stress on them to avoid something the show intended people to see. And I’d also point out that everyone on Paradis’ plan revolves around the rumbling in some form. The euthanization plan involves a small scale rumbling, the military’s plan involved a small scale rumbling, the Jaegerists, etc. I don’t think the lyrics will ruin the show for them as much as provoke an interesting dialogue—if they even recognize the word rumbling as what the choir is chanting, which I didn’t my first couple watches. (I think the visual of a certain character is more of a spoiler than the titans) Haven’t even mentioned how much the song *kicks ass* 😂 and it might be a crime in its own right to rob them from hearing it for a whole 6 episodes.

hman70

hate to say it but your comment includes knowledge beyond 4x16, in other words... spoilers.

Ego Jinpachi

That's the thing.... you really can't have that in this case, you either have nobody mention anything at all about the intro then its content will be a "hypothetical" scenario, but once we had people mentioning it has spoilers you HAVE to go overboard and avoid everything about it. Hopefully whoever is behind the scenes knows what to do.

Ego Jinpachi

Hope your trusted advisor doesn’t go overboard in trying to protect you guys like some fans are suggesting. Not watching the visuals like they normally do is more than fine enough, any additional warning or instructions else is likely to overstress or spoil them all on its own (no one knows a lyric is a spoiler UNLESS YOU TELL THEM IT IS)

hman70

Maybe you can watch the episodes from a file having someone you trust editing out the intro and replace it with a muted black screen for the duration of the intro so you don't have to stress and be ready to pause and manually skip to where it ends (idk if their version has a "skip intro" button but even if it does it's too risky) that way it won't mess up with the full-length version for the viewers to sync up.

Ego Jinpachi

Yeah, there's a new opening starting next episode and it has major spoilers, visually, lyrics and in the very song name, so avoid looking up anything about it at all cost, there are 2 problems that are going to be tedious if you 100% want to avoid spoilers: 1st, you won't be able to watch the intro until 4x22, 2ndly someone will have to give you the timers perfectly (and I mean PERFECTLY) of when the intro starts/ends playing for each of the next 5 episodes because the spoilers are from the very beginning -fraction of a second- of the song. It's up to you if you want to stress about it for 5eps or just watch it like most of us did, maybe a poll is needed cuz both alternatives are valid.

Ego Jinpachi

Do not watch the intro, but you can watch the outro. The intro is literally a spoiler festival

So lucky you don't have to wait a year for the next part. Your discussions and theories are always thoroughly entertaining. Like many others have doubtless said, you may want to considering avoiding watching the new opening sequence. Possibly not even listening to it, as the lyrics are in English.

Hollow

First part of season 4 done

Night Sterling

Hello Ben and Anna.I love your reaction."reeked like potatoes" means "country girl" in japan.Corny(US)＝Potato（JP）

中川摂生

I checked the outro and it is safe to watch. Happy watching

Variane

Hello Ben and Anna, I think you guys should not see next episodes intro due to spoilers. I'm unaware of the outro but I will look into it later and update my post if I can. hopefully my fellow patrons may inform you about the content of said outro.

Variane

I think there was a misunderstanding when discussing Annie. Anna mentioned that Zeke was trailing behind in his group and Annie was also trailing in her group but it's quite different. Annie just liked to walk away from others because she's an extreme introvert. Zeke trailing behind his peers is more similar to Reiner, and Zeke overcoming that and being chosen (with help from Ksaver) mirrors Eren and Falco's successes with help from Reiner.

Mekar

Imagine having to wait a year for the next episode after that ending

Readster

Yes! Thank you, Ben! My brother and I have been discussing Armin's reaction since it came out. I had been completely convinced that it was because he realized that Eren would NEVER choose to participate in sterilizing the Eldians. Keep in mind that the final words that Eren heard his mother say (through Shadis in the episode "Bystander") was that Eren is special just from being born into this world. Why on earth would he prevent Eldians from being born? Another thing that adds to this theory is that Armin did mention a few episodes back that lately he has been finding it difficult to understand Eren, unlike where they were younger. His tears (to me) symbolizes that he finally understands Eren for the first time in probably years.

Joshua

Yet again great reaction and discussion, despite having watched the show and reading the manga a million times, there was some new food for thought here. Curious to see, how you're going to approach new OP.

Weeros

What? The one below is "Sole Salvation's" review. There is not full-length for this and the last episode.

Adam Adamowicz

Pieck best girl, finally the important topics are discussed, Cart girl supremacy. To the mod, have they decided anything for the new op next week?

Antonio

to achieve his plan, Zeke needs to find a FOUNDING Titan who is not royal blood, not just any titan shifter. Annie or Colt could only come into play if they ate Eren.

Ray Quigs

Zeke is a messed up character, he understands the persecution of his race but his weird solution is to end his race’s existence, which would only benefit the people who have persecuted them. Marley gets free access to the valuable minerals on Paradis and the rest of the world do not have to deal with the titans. Plus the Rumbling is no longer a threat.

Rob Brown

What's interesting actually, that you discuss around 41:00, is that Zeke claims responsibility for making decisions for the Eldian race. If you think about it, as far as the viewer knows, he and Historia are the only royal-lineage Eldians left. Zeke is the King of the continental Eldians, a kind of Moses figure, and Historia is the Queen of the insular Eldians.

AJ N

there is one

Isac christensen

there is one posted below this post

MagnusVD

Adam Adamowicz

Shit is about to pop off, hold onto your hats. Enjoy the ride. :)

Brandon Tski

I joined your guys’ Patreon to see the upcoming arc along with these past few episodes. Your discussions are amazing! Reiner is my favorite as well. Absolutely can’t wait for the next stretch of episodes

Sarah S