Re: Zero 2x12 Reaction Extended (YT link below)
Added 2025-01-24 02:00:10 +0000 UTCIn Re: Zero 2x12, The Witches' Tea Party, just my soul? Yeah take it.
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Echidna is so manipulative, she successfully manipulated Alex! 😂😂 (jk)
LolDanDaMan
2025-02-24 09:35:36 +0000 UTCI really appreciate your outlook and take on the themes of this season so far! Very different than my thought process up until this point 😭😭😭😭😭. Looking forward to the next episodes.
Russie ♡ Russell Bumpers
2025-01-27 02:16:30 +0000 UTCIf Roswaal is anything to go by, following Echidna's instructions ends with you blindly feeding yourself to carnivorous rabbits.
trickster721
2025-01-25 23:42:40 +0000 UTCSomething you might want to consider is that return by death allows you the potential to spend an infinite amount of time exploring different timelines. This is something that is extremely appealing to echidna. It would be hard to imagine that echidna would help Subaru reach his desired path without also having him suffer through countless deaths first so she could satisfy her curiosity. From Echinda’s perspective, it would be a shame and a waste of potential if Subaru were to reach his desired future on the first try. In fact, the more times subaru fails and resets, the more timelines echinda gets to experience and feed her curiosity. She might help him reach the desired future “in the end”, but the path to that future would certainly not be linear, it would contain many curves, detours, and even steps backwards, many of which would be probably be caused by echinda’s manipulation of Subaru to take these paths.
Blaise Duncan
2025-01-24 23:12:28 +0000 UTCher contract sounds great but its actually pure nightmare feul. the trap is the wording of the contract combined with her motivations as a character. keep in mind she wants to see every possible outcome and she says she will lead him to the best outcome. meaning she would basically have him die a ridiculous amount of times for every situation they encounter. even if subaru already succeeded she would have probably had him die again just to see if there was a better way he could have done it. thats wy on the greed what if route the author made for what if subaru had agreed to the contract he died over a million times and was slowly loosing his emotions.
Tyre Willis
2025-01-24 21:16:53 +0000 UTCThat speech from Echidna was even more unhinged in the original written version. It's made pretty clear she's not only willing, but eager for Subaru to endure millions of resets (read: deaths and horrible realities) just out of curiosity. So while she's not lying about getting him what he wants eventually, it's kinda like the line from the the Fallout TV show: "will you even want the same thing anymore once you've been changed into a different animal entirely". I think that's part of why Subaru asks not just about Beatrice's circumstances, but Echidna's feelings about it. She reveals not only does she not care about all the suffering she endured, she doesn't even understand that it's something ANYONE would care about. That gives you a good idea of where her guidance would lead Subaru.
Anders Pike
2025-01-24 16:02:11 +0000 UTCI think you explained it pretty well. I haven't read the webnovel, but I do read the light novel, and it's basically the same there. It's also the reason I prefer the written format for this series. Subaru's internal monologue is adding so much depth and context that is just missing in the anime or at the very least up for interpretation. I also agree that the danger in accepting Echidna's contract lies in that she will help him reach the best ending, but she will not tell him about the sacrifices that might happen when he acts on her consultations. Which will lead to numerous situations where she will just be like "I knew this would happen but it can't be helped if you want to reach the best ending *shrug*" Which would in turn after a while clue Subaru in to the mistake he made, and not act according to her wisdom anymore. But it would also mean their relationship is no longer one of trust, making all of Echidna's insights and therefore the contract worthless to Subaru. Because she might once again be leading him down a path where he has to sacrifice something or someone, right? So better not to trust her. And in my opinion, not only would the contract be useless for him in that case, he would also be forced to see her regularly and sharing his experiences with her, knowing she has no interest in truly helping him whatsoever. That's also gotta be exhausting. So yeah. Definitely a lot of context is lost in this episode.
Janny
2025-01-24 08:58:25 +0000 UTCTo best understand this episode, we also need to understand Subaru, and I think the anime frankly fails in doing so in this Arc. I'm going to be using my knowledge of the web novel, so the details may differ from the light novel, but Subaru's character arc is the same. In the wake of Rem's Name and Memories being eaten, Subaru begins to believe that he must become more willing to actively utilise Return By Death, regardless of the pain that it brings him. To do this, he has to sacrifice the value that he attaches to his life, and by extension, himself. Throughout the novels, he repeatedly states in narration and internal monologue that he desires a heart made of steel that won't bend underneath the suffering that he has to endure, that if only he could get to a point where suffering no longer bothers him he can finally become capable of saving everyone. But this detachment doesn't just affect his self esteem, he also begins to view the world around him as somewhat meaningless, since everything he does can just be reset. He begins doing some pretty awful things to other characters. For example, one time he uses the Ryuzu clones, and Ryuzu herself, to suppress Garfiel while Subaru leaves the Sanctuary. While Garfiel screams, cries, and begs his grandmother figure to let go of him, Subaru mentally apologises while thinking about the fact that this timeline won't stick around. It still hurts him to do it, but the fact that he even decided to do something like that in the first place is a huge shift in his mindset about the people and world around him. This isn't to say he was some inhuman monster, but by becoming willing to sacrifice his own heart, by becoming willing to pile on deaths in order to find the right future, he becomes fundamentally disconnected from the people and world around him, which causes suffering (which is what the Second Trial presents. There, it LITERALLY hurts the people around him to see him dead, but it follows metaphorically.) From this, we can recontextualise Echidna's contract, where she says that sacrifices along the way must be accepted. For Subaru, this means that in her contract with her, she will put him onto a path where he can save everyone, yes, but he will lose his humanity in the process as a necessary sacrifice. We see in a side story that follows an alternate reality where he accepts her contract that Echidna will leave out important information, or knowingly lead him down false paths purely to satisfy her curiosity. He may not HAVE to follow what she says, but his mentality of self-sacrifice and her being a convenient tool inexorably leads to such a situation. He can't rely on anyone else, because when he relied on Rem, she was taken away from him. He must be the only one to experience sacrifice. I hope that made sense. It's hard to compress so much character writing into just a few paragraphs. As for cut content, there is a major piece. In the Puck vs. Reinhard showdown, Pick states that in order to save "her" (presumably meaning Emilia), he must destroy the world. What that means I leave up to you to decipher. Wonderful reaction, can't wait for the next one
Kieran
2025-01-24 07:22:25 +0000 UTCIt is probably just counsel. The problem is that dying is extremely traumatic for anyone, even with RbD. It's why Subaru's mental state is worse the further along an arc progresses, because he's typically died a couple of times. And that makes it incredibly easy for someone like Echidna to convince you to rely on her. If she was a separate entity outside my head, I think I'd be fine giving her knowledge of previous timelines. But if she's inside my head, I think that gives her way too much insight into how I think and feel about things, and would give her the perfect leverage to manipulate me once things got tough and I've died a couple of times. Like, presumably, she'd be able to read my thoughts if she was in my head since we wouldn't be able to communicate with each other. And that's far too invasive for me to trust her with. Especially since I'd probably wouldn't be able to read her thoughts in return.
BirthdayParty
2025-01-24 06:53:45 +0000 UTCSure, the trials are done through the memories of the person taking it, but I also think Echidnas vast knowledge is added ontop of that, hence why e.g. Reinhart's strength was probably more acurate to reality than what Subaru would think on his own.
Baddy
2025-01-24 05:48:34 +0000 UTCThe anime had to deal with time restrictions so the pacing is a little too fast for the viewer to be 100% onboard with Subaru in his view on Echidna. Cutting away Subaru’s inner monologue doesn’t help either, because in the novels he actually felt something was off with Echidna from their first meeting. The gist is that he has always perceived Echidna’s personality and emotional expressions as somewhat shallow, but could never put his finger on it till now. In this episode, as she gradually reveals her motives — Subaru also noticed that her Greed seems to be overwriting any personality that she previously had. But it wasn’t until Echidna’s comment on Beatrice and how she essentially set her up the whole time out of pure curiosity — that Subaru realized that this was more in line with the outlook on “Witches” that all his peers were warning him about. He deduced that Echidna doesn’t actually understand human emotions, and merely mimic their behavior based on the knowledge that she possesses. Her personality, along with her short bursts of embarrassment, anger, and laugher — all felt off to Subaru the whole time because she was acting a character. The novel made it clear that Echidna is a witch with no personality to her that’s genuine outside of her Greed. Everything she does is more or less an act of sympathizing with humans like Subaru. The Beatrice situation is BAD bad because of the nuanced implications behind it. If Echidna really raised her and was familiar with her emotional immaturity, yet still decided to abandon her in a sealed up room to guard dusty old books, all just for the sake of satisfying her curiosity — that’s actually irredeemable. But then Subaru goes to explicitly state that her curiosity was not one of malice, she just genuinely can’t comprehend human emotions other than Greed, and so can never have real consideration for others that goes beyond her shallow mimicry of human behavior. This meant that while it’s debatable on whether she can be called “evil”, she certainly falls under the category of “incomprehensible” — which finally parallels the image of “Witches” held by Subaru’s allies. Also, I get that Beatrice doesn’t exactly feel like an appealing individual right now because of her whole can of worms that’s full of pitfalls. But Subaru has always held her dear ever since she first saved him in that loop where she let him hide in her library for a few days, and later formed a contract with him to protect him — which she kept even when the likes of Roswaal and Ram were against her. Not to mention, the sympathy that she constantly showed Subaru, even back when they were strangers and he had nothing to offer — is something more human than anything Echidna is capable of. Beatrice is honestly a pretty good candidate for showing the most humanity and altruism in Season 1, especially during an arc where everyone was forming alliances based on their own interests. It really is only during Season 2 that I can see how her 400 years of worms might make one reconsider going out of their way to help her — but Subaru certainly had no hesitations on that. Subaru’s biggest fear so far this season with Beatrice was the worry that all of her goodwill and actions thus far had been dictated by her Tome of Wisdom. But ever since that was disproved by her empty book last episode, Subaru no longer has any doubts on his helping her. Thanks for the great episodes, see you next week! :D
Hailan
2025-01-24 05:32:38 +0000 UTCAlso fun fact if you see this, it’s actually Echidnas birthday today. So honestly pretty perfect timing for this episode lmao.
Vali Sippola
2025-01-24 04:54:59 +0000 UTCPersonally my favorite episode of the season come next when we have the full witch tea party :) As for Echidnas deal I like how at least with the novel versions of this story it's almost like a visual novel some side stories are told like Alternate routes. Like what if subaru ran away with Rem or what if he took this deal (reccomending if you have time to read at least the echidna deal side story) Also you would Hella fall for the Echidna bad end in this visual novel lol
PKKite
2025-01-24 04:49:36 +0000 UTCSubaru has full control of his own actions like Echidna cant force Subaru to do something but because Subaru was unable to figure out the sanctuary problem himself he grew a dependance on her. Kinda how disguised Rem showed up in this episode telling Subaru to rely on her and give up, its basically like that. Echidna is giving Subaru constant advice on what to do and how to do it. So while most of the main cast in this side story are safe they are either deppresed or scared because Echidna/Subaru never helps them become better. I dont wanna get too deep into it cuz some of it could lead to spoilers but Emilia grew obsessive over him (even cut her hair to make herself look more like Rem), Beatrice is stuck in the library cuz Subaru never helps her, Garfiel is deppresed and actually unleashes his anger at Reinhard (cuz he can take it) but still gets bodied everytime xD Reinhard is deppresed because he lost his only reason for being a knight, Felt went back to the slums, Rem is still gone. Yeah the only one eating good is Echidna in this side story so its better he didnt take the deal, i mean in the side story it starts with Petra asking Subaru how he thinks the weather will be later, and by the end of the day/story he tells Elsa to kill him (yes, this man actually hired Elsa to kill him to benifit from infinite return by death) and he went back to the start of the day just to tell Petra how the weather was gonna be, thats how low our boy Subaru went. He abuses return by death over the smallest of things which is why his death count is over 100 thousand lol.
Snor
2025-01-24 04:11:11 +0000 UTCSimple explanation is that I'm just a sucker for Echidna. Beyond that, it's a question of - How much direct magical influence will she have over me? (as opposed to real-world stuff like manipulation) - What does "best future" mean exactly? If it's just counsel and she wants to hitch a ride, and I am aware that we may not agree on either the "best future" or even best path, then seems like a win overall to have her as a voice in my head.
Alex G
2025-01-24 04:10:02 +0000 UTCYeah Echidna is not someone to put blind trust in. I think what it comes down to for me is how much magical influence she has directly over me with this contract (as opposed to just words and manipulative tactics). If it's 0, then I think, probably naively, I can take the deal AND help Beatrice. Taking Beatrice's hand as a contract type deal, "I'm the one for you" type thing, scares me more because of how it plays into Beatrice's vulnerabilities and escapist fantasies somewhat. That's one of those situations that's hard to help because you want to be there for them but risk overstepping and trying to do something that never was possible for you to do alone anyway.
Alex G
2025-01-24 04:00:49 +0000 UTCGood I'm glad I'm not the only one who felt tempted haha
Alex G
2025-01-24 03:56:01 +0000 UTCInteresting, in that timeline how much of that is within Subaru's control? How much does Echidna influence exactly I wonder
Alex G
2025-01-24 03:55:42 +0000 UTCIf she's being honest about that
Ryan
2025-01-24 03:52:13 +0000 UTCRegarding number 3, the other witches confirmed, and it would make sense if she had to be honest about it to make it work, that Echidna never lied regarding the contract.
Baddy
2025-01-24 03:49:18 +0000 UTCDespite her untrustworthiness & manipulativeness I can't help but love Echidna's character. As a person who is also greedy for knowledge, I'm sure I'd probably end up making a contract with her. xD I haven't read the side story at all, but assuming Echidna is telling the truth about the details of the contract... its not as though Subaru HAS to Return By Death or even follow any of the advice Echidna gives?? Like even if she tried to lead him to the 'best' possible future its not as though she controls his actions. I'd argue that even Subaru ignoring her advice when she gives it would still be interesting for her - the 'why's of his defiance being a form of knowledge of the human psyche. If all that makes sense? That being said, I DO understand why Subaru made the choice that he did.
Sweetbun
2025-01-24 03:49:10 +0000 UTCConsidering that Subaru can only access the teaparty and Echidna while in this very specific place and, by Echidnas account, it becomes harder and harder to actually get there each time, I always interpeted it as her needing the contract to leave or atleast to be able to talk to Subaru anytime anywhere in the first place — Something like transfering her soul into him and acompanying him that way for example — Without him needing to go there everytime like right now, which might not even be possible everytime he would need her.
Baddy
2025-01-24 03:46:08 +0000 UTCI'm genuinely a bit surprised that Alex had that reaction, but I get that that's probably just because I couldn't do it myself. It's the combination of five things for me: 1) The second trial showed us at least the possibility that the bad timelines continue, and that every death might also doom countless others. 2) Echidna is wholly unconcerned with how, and how many times Subaru has to die. 3) She has already either straight up lied ("only one witch can occupy the dream at once") or withheld information many times when it suited her curiosity, so the idea that she's a trustworthy source of information is a little hard to swallow. 4) Dying horrible deaths over and over is unpleasant. 5) [the reason I thought Alex might have a different reaction] I think it's really hard to go through this journey wondering if the latest bad ending was because I made a poor decision, or because I trusted the wrong person to make that decision for me.
Ryan
2025-01-24 03:05:40 +0000 UTCwhile it's left unclear as to whether when Subaru dies, he goes to a new timeline or not I personally think the new timeline think isn't true because I feel like if it was then all his efforts would have been for nothing since he would just be leaving them to die if those timelines. between Beatrice and Echidna I would 1000 percent choose Beatrice, to me I don't trust Echidna one bit especially with how Subaru says she's incapable of understanding how anybody feels which I feel is true shes so greedy she would do whatever it takes to get what she wants and for subaru to get the best future he would probably end up hurting those around him.
Mjw
2025-01-24 02:55:12 +0000 UTCLove this episode. You’ve got all the craziness of the first half with the unthinkable present, and then pure conversation the second. I’m continually impressed by this show and stories ability to have pure conversation be entertaining purely through the twists and turns within the dialogue. The unthinkable present is such a horrifying idea. The very possibility that Subaru is leaving behind entire worldlines to an unknown future. It’s especially horrifying to see the worlds where he ends his own life. Fun fact about the Reinhard VS Puck loop. When Reinhard kills Puck, the narration of the novel states that in that swing, he destroyed Puck, and the world itself was split, and as his blade came back up, it healed, and looked as if spring had come. So yeah, he’s that guy. And Echidna. She reveals her true intentions. Her words, her behaviors, all calculated. Hell she says it herself. I honestly understand your perspective on taking Echidnas hand. It’s definitely an option. I’m more on Subarus end personally, as the other witches say, she’s not saying everything. Doesn’t mean she’s lying, but who’s to say Subaru wouldn’t be trapped into something like Beatrice is, whether by force or of his own making. It’s something you could easily regret. How much are you willing to sacrifice? That’s the question. And that’s a tricky thing, because usually the goalpost just gets moved further and further. But who knows. Like Echidna says, there’s infinite possibilities. I do agree with what you said about them not being monsters. I think there’s more to them than just that, even though I do think that they are absolutely incomprehensible at times. And honestly I can’t help but feel for Beatrice. She’s referred to someone as “Mother” a number of times throughout the series, and it’s pretty clear who that is. Echidnas manipulation is that of a mother to her child. And even if, like Subaru himself says, her order to her was out of curiosity, without malice, I’m with Subaru on this, personally. And this is probably a good time to bring this up, but Tappei, the author, has written a number of “IF” stories. They’re explorations of things that may have happened had Subaru chosen a different path. The Greed IF is where he accepts Echidnas contract. I won’t go into the full details of the story, but it’s a pretty dark path he ends up going down. There’s another one called Sloth IF where he ends up running away with Rem in S1. Awesome thoughts as always, this episode is jsut super fascinating, there’s tons to talk about. I’m super, super excited for the next ep. One of my absolute favorites.
Vali Sippola
2025-01-24 02:54:32 +0000 UTCPeak zero day!!! I dont judge you at all lol, Echidna is such a compelling personality and character, i can not say it myself that i wouldnt take the deal
Aukar frank
2025-01-24 02:42:19 +0000 UTCGreat reaction, the idea of the worlds continuing is interesting altho i dont think thats the case because if it is then whats the point uknow? Subaru isnt saving anyone he is just creating the perfect world for himself so idk if it is or not but imma hope not xD Also about Echidna's contract there is a side story where subaru actually did take her deal il try to say what its about spoiler free from the main timeline (side story below) Subaru takes her deal and gets a neglace that echidna can see thru and they can communicate to each other at all times the problem with this tho is that like Subaru says Echidna isnt capable of understanding or respecting other peoples emotions so while she carves out the best path for subaru his friends are all hurt. Otto even left him in this timeline and Beatrice and Emilia arent well mentally because Subaru manipulates them including Reinhard, he convinces Felt to drop out of the election and takes Reinhard for his own camp. (Which greatly upsets Reinhard) Also in this timeline subaru has died like over 100 thousand times if i remember correctly he jus doesnt care about dying anymore which effects him mentally, in this story he acts more like a deppressed Subaru. So yea the contract route is no good.
Snor
2025-01-24 02:39:38 +0000 UTCI always had a feeling you were an Archbishop of Greed... Your love for Echidna is next level
Galleon
2025-01-24 02:23:49 +0000 UTC
