The Way Down

It’s Everything! Recognised it as soon as I heard it!! 🙃

Sarah

So the song her husband sings is an umm interesting rendition of a Michael buble song I think 😂 they used to play it non stop when I worked retail

Cassie

Whenever someone tells me “intent doesn’t matter,” I always just think ok so if I trip on the sidewalk and accidentally knock someone into traffic, that should be the same murder charge as if I deliberately shoved them?

Johnny 5

A lack of intent *is* a legal defense to murder, though. It's not necessarily a defense to other charges, but it is very much a defense to malice murder, which is what the Smiths were charged with. Malice murder requires "malice aforethought," meaning intent.

Mohini Lal

I am a Christian, and a church I went to in the early 2000's had a ladies' group that did Gwen's book. It was so harmful, not only to my mental state, but my spirituality as well. It's incredibly legalistic and shame based. I realized the harm after a few weeks and left to find a non-toxic church. But I still know dozens of people hurt by this cult. The popularity of the book at the time had far-reaching effects.

Megan E.

Michael and Aubrey! Thank you so much for your content. It has been super helpful to me personally and has impacted the ways that I show up in the world! This episode/documentary was hard for me because I have a lot of this sort of nonsense in my past from 25 years of being in Christian churches. I no longer identify with that religion! One of the things that I think would be super interesting for future podcasts is the idea of how spirituality gets conflated with weight loss. one of the most dangerous aspects of what Gwen was doing is using spiritual power for her own gain. It’s one thing when a human tells you to lose weight and it’s another when that human uses God as a way to reinforce that. That is a particular type of darkness that is deeply damaging. Money and influence can give you power, but there is nothing quite like the power and influence that one can garner when they seek to control people’s a spiritual experience. One of the things that’s so difficult about this is the heaping on of moral absolutes in the realm of weight loss and body. I have studied and written, about Gwen Shamblin, and the damage of the mixture of spirituality/morality in regard to anti-fat bias is super troubling. This is a dark, dark world! my involvement in Christian churches who set these kinds of standards and used this type of rhetoric definitely contributed to my 15 year long eating disorder. Anyway, I just wanted to add that the topic of Christianity and diet culture is a really important discussion. And I think one thing that cannot be missed, in this discussion is the way that women seek spiritual power over other women (which is handed down from the patriarchy) and then use that power to shame and control women. In this way, men do not have to keep women in line because women in power will do it for them. What Gwen was doing is equally if not more dangerous than other grifters, you all have covered!!

Lisa M Lamarche

I'd love an ep talking about your thoughts on intutive eating.

itsanart

I really thought it was the mom from schits creek

david lister

Sarah isn't on this podcast :)

sarah clark

Fun fact. I work in emergency service in Murfreesboro, Tennessee. I was working the night their plane crashed.

Jess

I know this is years late but Gwen used to be my literal next door neighbor

Henry Byrd

I'm watching this for the first time today, and it seems like they've added more episodes, because they do mention in later episodes that they do gain the weight back, and develop eating disorders, and so on. I would be interested in a follow up episode on "season 2" if you want to do one :)

Kate Williamson

I have not seen this documentary and probably won't. I do remember when the book came out, I was a Christian then and that idea of giving it (weight, or whatever your issue) to God because it is "sinful" was seen as revolutionary. This mindset trickled it's way through many churches then and it is still present in the church today. This is what is harmful and I wish this abusiveness towards peoples bodies would stop...it's not Godly at all.

Sandra Jowett

Oh, dear. I’d never heard of this lady, and then I looked her up. “The Way Down?” All things considered for Gwen, that’s a yikes

Diana Ott

I didn’t go to her church, but the cult I was a part of (Los Angeles International Church of Christ) made all the women do The Way Down or the Eat Right 4 Your Type of basically anything to makes us thin. So many of the women’s leaders had severe eating disorders

Lisa Fite

This is exactly what I can here to post. I think Jen at Fundie Fridays does an amazing job with Gwen’s story and gives A LOT more context. There was an extreme amount of spiritual abuse happening in and around Remnant Fellowship church and that just brings a whole different view of things. Worth watching Fundie Fridays videos!

Joanne BooksCatsAndTats

I recently watched Monsters Inside and i feel the exact same way as Aubrey. it started out super cool and informative with all the scientific evidence we have of DID (though it isn't much yet, what we *did* have was very intriguing to learn sbout). and then halfway through they started trying to tear all of it apart. I have many choice words about that but I won't delve all the way in lol. i understand the need to have "both sides" in a documentary, but it felt like the people interviewed did not only think that this guy was lying the entire time (to gain what?? infinite bad publicity and endless psych evals? no thanks), but that DID doesn't exist at all! that is insane to me, given what we currently know about it. there's still a lot to learn and uncover, but I think the evidence we have currently from studying those with DID supports the idea that this IS a real disorder, and we should take those afflicted with it seriously (and not treat them like they're insane, manipulative liars).

Nico

Hey Michael and Aubrey! I would like to recommend the Fundie Fridays YouTube channel for more context into Gwen Shamblin Lara. Jen from FF is hilarious and super research oriented and does a great job of clarifying Remnant Fellowship and GSL. https://youtu.be/AQUl9C_zkpM

Emily Guy Birken

The moment Ted Bundy got mentioned, I immediately thought "I'm surprised Sarah didn't have anything to add about Ted Bundy".

Justin Hamilton

Here’s my experience w Weigh Down. I babysat in late high school. One of the families I did this for haunted me. The mother was on it while she was pregnant. That made me upset bc there was this expectation W pregnancies in the church to stay small or not get bigger. Seeing it freaked me out and made me hurt for the mom until I saw how it made her treat her kids. The mom had entire cabinets of food that were off limits to the kids. They wanted to go through the trash to snack. I called my Mom and she brought them happy meals. I made sure to let them have fun and of course, the mom came home 4 hours late. I never baby sat for them again.

Amanda Webster

I love that you’re talking about this!!!!!!

Amanda Webster

I have one of her books that I got as a gift in college when I literally was half the size I am now. It's WILD. It replaces as much as possible with non-food. I would be happy to provide scans if wanted!

Wathgwen

I'm very late to this but I found out about the documentary at Christmas and, upon finishing was like "This would make a fascinating Maintenance Phase episode..." Then I joined the Patreon and was very happy!

Rachel Wilhoyte

Would you ever do an episode on Intuitive Eating? Good bad and ugly?

Tamara

The last episode actually addressed a lot of eating disorders and problems from the eating habits

Casey Jayne

I would love sooooo much for y’all to collaborate with Jen from the YouTube channel Fundie Fridays for a episode about Gwen Shamblin Lara without the framing device of the documentary. There have been updates! (I kinda laughed when you talked about the “sort of downfall,” because she very much did have a downfall. In a plane.)

ES

THANK YOU MICHAEL for voicing how I also felt about how poorly made this doc was; nail on the head re: the Tiger King effect on documentary work these days: sensationalized accounts of human stories by filmmakers not documentarians committed to the actual inherent journalistic aspect of making a non-fiction work.

Allison Valiquette

I would love to hear what y'all think about Part II of the doc!

Jaime Seiverd

This documentary was cray

Amanda Goulet

Also, there's two more episodes added to the documentary. The plane crash and the aftermath, including the little girl being reunited with her mother (the cult tried to keep her).

Lisa Manske

Is it horrible that I considered dressing up as Gwen Shamblin for Halloween?

Lisa Manske

I laughed out loud when Aubrey said that everyone had a party has been notified that she had lost weight.

Charlotte

Immediately when she said it I went… wait. I think that’s… and I had to pull it up on Spotify but I had this same reaction 😂

Erica Bryant

I know I’m late but that was such a gooood one! Thank you Michael for that deep dive. So many more layers to that story.

Renita Daniels

The diet program is but the documentary on hbo is called the "way" down

Hailee Nicole

Isn’t it called The Weigh Down?

Tania Modleski

omg I totally bought into this shit in the 90s (I have since deconstructed my faith) and regrettably participated in this as a "Bible Study" at my church. It was called "Exodus" but we were exodusing our overeating not leaving Egypt. I had kinda blocked it out- I didn't recognize her name or picture, but it all came flooding back as I listened. I lived in California at the time, so her reach was far and wide. Also, it was a Nazarene church I went to, which in the scheme of things was not as out there as a lot of fringe Christian churches. This underscores the power of her marketing ability. It makes me sad for who I was at that time, but also grateful and proud that I survived it and got out entirely. Thanks for another illuminating episode that hit close to home.

PV S

Did anyone else think that the pic of Gwen was actually Maria Bamford on a TN white lady wig (at first glance)?

Emily Lawson

I could have really used a TW about the child abuse with this one. I haven’t seen the HBO series so I was left pretty lost and didn’t see the abuse discussion coming.

Daina Bouquin

I hate that I know this

Tarah M

The carousel wishing well verse is now stuck in my head and I was like damn that sounds so much like Michael Buble- IT IS MICHAEL BUBLE! This awful nonsense is like a zillion copy pop culture phenom.

Tarah M

Aubrey talking about people celebrating her unintentional weight loss rather than her book deal really hit me. I got my PhD and moved in with my long term boyfriend in the same month ... guess what I got asked about ...

Nicole Burt

now I can't unsee it!

Christina Ballhorn

Why does she remind me of a terrifying corporate version of SMG as Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Iryna Boubriak

I joined Patreon just to hear Aubrey get to the downfall of this. I'm so excited 🤣

Beth Noyes

O.M.G this diet was THE diet for so many of my mom’s friends (and my then future mom in law’s gospel! …… having grown up in the church I absolutely resented politics in the pulpit AND Congregation diets…. ….. the Daniel fast?!???? Nothing like a little fire and brimstone mixed in with some fat shaming because you enjoy the holidays too much…A diet my mother in law still swears by …..in the name of Jesus ! Or course 🤣

Erin Malia Cross

I study eating disorders and some of it has to do with the culture of shame. If you are primed to feel religious shame, you are also primed to feel shame around food. And it easily gets twisted into the “glutton” narrative by families and friends regardless of the actual diet of the person in question. Horrible all around.

Alysandra Jackson

This episode was SO poinenant! Have you heard about the Daniel diet? My mom's very conservative evangelical church did a whole thing about it (and some probably still do). Keep it up! You two are the best!

Joy Kathleen

I love you guys, but you make the same mistake on this episode that you accuse the filmmakers of. Usually when you talk about things that we may not know about (i.e., Belle Gibson, Gordon Peterson), you do a great job of laying out the relevant facts. But I haven’t seen the TV series you discuss here, which leaves me in the dark. Perhaps Patreon segments don’t follow the same rules as those on the main podcast?

Fred Cohn

Someone recommended that one to me (because someone in her church recommended it to her) and the title just makes me gag. The same person also recommended keto to me more than once and I had to remind her several times that no, I would not be trying keto because I don't have a gallbladder.

Anna O.

Please look into Trim Healthy Mama!!!

Acelyn

Hmm. Yeah I may have too though I don't precisely remember what was written. It was late at night.

Lise Dale

@Lise Dale I was reacting to a 10-second unimportant tangent and got too involved with writing my comment. Don’t worry about it haha

Virginia Smith

I'm confused. Monsters inside? Did I miss something?

Lise Dale

Virginia Smith

It's this really gross thing of like "well, the fact that people in concentration camps starved into emaciation means that calories-in-calories-out works and that if you just eat little enough, you have to lose weight."

Alcor Drew Hilliard

I swear that these conspiracy theorists and cult leaders LOVE to bring up Jews and the Holocaust and like queer people? And I’m not sure what the hell that’s about but someone needs to unpack it. Leave us Jews out of it thank you so much 🙄

Jordanna Rosen

I'm still listening: WAIT, do they not talk about the massive fame that Weigh Down the book and the groups had in the '90's in church circles?? That's what gave her the huge platform to then create the church. She was very into the smaller plates thing, haha. But yeah, don't eat if you're not hungry; stop when you're full; the reason you want to eat so much is because you need God's love and PRAY MORE.

Hannah Burtness

So I still haven't seen this doc, partly because as a kid I went to Weigh Down sessions with my mom, and she used it and loved it, and I think it maybe gave. my older sister an ED while we were teens? But what I came to the comment section to ask is, did they include any of Gwen's little countryisms that she had in the Weigh Down tapes (yes, tapes)? The one that still sticks top of mind is: "Just mobilize a snack off your hips!" (encouragement to people to not eat when they felt hungry) and also the time she told listeners that if our gums were bleeding it was because we haven't flossed lately NOT from scurvy or Beriberi from not eating as much. (I was also at a Remnant Fellowship conference as a teen, swooned a bit over her son who was trying to have a singing career at the time, but the Weigh Down small groups were a bigger part of my life...)

Hannah Burtness

Listened to a random true crime podcast episode (sinisterhood I think) about this. And they did a way better job than this big budget hbo doc at telling victims stories and centering the problematic issues with fat phobia.

Amanda Steele

omg THANK you. I found myself underwhelmed by this doc and couldn't put my finger on why, and you guys absolutely nailed it for me.

Alyson R

I was expecting the title of that one book to be "More Jesus, Less Cheeses."

Champ Scrambles

"If you want to get rich, you start a religion" - L. Ron Hubbard

Jessalyn Small

This episode made me think of the "But Doctor, I am Pagliacci" joke. Anybody else with these critiques I'd say "hey, if what you're looking for is quality content, I've got a good podcast for you to check out."

MP

If you want of a dive into the theology of this church and what it's been up to more recently FundieFridays on YouTube has a really good episode on it.

Betti Steam

Now I want more of Mike & Aubrey’s documentary opinion - specifically on The Vow regarding the NXIVM cult.

Meredith Wemhoff

Yes. Agree. I finished it and was left with more questions than answers and now I understand why.

Allyson

An former coworker of mine who I remain facebook friends with has been posting about a Christian sugar detox called the "40 day sugar fast: Where physical detox meets spiritual transformation." It reminds me of this!

Allie L.

I’d love to see an episode on dessertclub.com founded by life coach, Katie nolastname. I also feel like “Life Coaches” are some of the griffiest grifters out there

Katelyn

I'm so sorry. That part of the podcast totally freaked me out. That couple literally beat their child to death and Gwen pays for their defense. Of course the accused are entitled to a lawyer, but one would think this church would want to distance themselves from child murder. Like Mike and Aubrey said, Gwen didn't hide anything. Glad I skipped that documentary, for various reasons.

Alyssa Boyle

The link between corporal punishment & christianity unlocked a memory for me of the private southern baptist school I attended for elementary—the principal had (AND USED) a wooden paddle on ‘disobedient’ students. 99% sure that it had a bible verse on it too 😬😬

Sydney Beal

I feel so validated- there was a huuuuge gap between how interesting this topic should be vs. how interesting the documentary actually was.

Becky Berenbon

I'm very very interested to know more about the intersection between eds and religion... I remember being in treatment at like 15 and talking about religion and all of us were Catholic

Sara Gregor

I saw another video about Lara that suggested the glue stick was the weapon of choice because it doesn't bruise, is that true? They only have the short hard ones where I live

Heather McIntyre

Thank you. Couldn’t get this thought out of my head while I was listening to this episode. While I think the episode was fair in its criticism, I couldn’t help but think it would have been better to wait until the whole documentary was released before making any judgements. But, I love the MP podcast and think they do an incredible job. Just wished they would have waited for the entire doc to air.

Roy Jacobson

Y'all are dope. Thank you. I just got WLS 2 days ago, and Aubrey, your book and this podcast have me more prepared than anything else to live the rest of my life.

Myron Parks

Hard agree. I'm sure I'm being redundant here but I feel like the reason why Christian weight loss stuff can be a thing is because of the long history of refusing pleasure now for the sake of it later. I wonder if there are historical texts that specifically mention nuns/women in the church becoming emaciated in the name of Christ? The closest/furthest I can think of extreme avoidance of pleasure being perhaps achoresses?

Emily Riebeek

We need a fundie Fridays crossover w maintenance phase episode when they cover more Christian wieghtloss stuff tbh

Emily Riebeek

See, and I had assumed they’d meant those big, felt-tipped liquid glue sticks we used in school in the late 80s and early 90s. I think I assumed it was those because they were about a foot long, an inch thick, and you could absolutely wallop the bajeeziz out of someone with them… and at my school, and on my hour long bus rides, we 100% did. They HURT. They kind of looked like these (https://www.theofficeshoppe.com.au/product/fueki-liquid-glue-pen/), and had some heft and whippiness to em.

Sivri

The list of possible Christian diet books to analyze for future episodes made me so excited. I have particularly strong feelings about the Daniel Diet, in case you happen to need an interviewee. 😄

Reader of Good Books

yes he did!

Cassie Kruse

So I did enjoy this documentary quite uncritically and you've raised really good points. However, "they talked to Joe Lara's ex but not Joe Lara" because Joe Lara is dead. He in the plane that Gwen died in, wasn't he?

Amy Fabry-Jenkins

Jen from Fundie Fridays (YouTube) did a great episode on Gwen Shamblin. Way more interesting and informative than the doco sounds! https://youtu.be/KvIZzx_tJwQ

Aimee J

This was great! I love a good documentary discussion! In my experience with intuitive eating it definitely goes different ways. The authors of the big book for it really have tried to distance themselves from weight loss but even they have dangled that promise in the past. Then there’s the Oprah famous Geneen Roth who also says she’s not about weight loss but is less convincing to me.

Sara Sullivan

Mike and I agree about the documentary and that makes me feel validated

Emily Kuper

Maybe please write this book.

Emily Adams

Ahh!!! Yes!! I’m from Brentwood and my parents mentioned to me that a plane crashed in our big lake in Nashville back in May. I haven’t really thought about it since but I just checked our her Wikipedia page and saw that it was HER PLANE that crashed 😮

Michael Franklin

"brought church members in to interview them about their sins because they needed someone to blame for Gwen’s grandbaby dying of SIDS" They did mention that! One of the women interviewed talked about being dragged in for it. They didn't linger on it, though, and it felt like they spent a lot more time on Gwen's son's substance abuse and philandering. The first episode opens with a children's choir and it's not clear if they filmed that or lifted it from a Remnant-related source - is that what you mean? I did feel that whenever Gwen was surrounded by children, they looked like they were being used as props.

vevintage

My first husband was Mormon and I used to go to church with him, back when he was trying to stick to it. I didn't find them to be particularly fatphobic and when I was going (mid-00s) they didn't, as far as I know, have any kind of weight-loss programming. They were pretty focused on making sure to tithe and studying the many scriptures etc. The Mormons have what they call "The Word of Wisdom", a passage in Joseph Smith's bible fanfic Doctrine and Covenants, that basically tells them not to smoke/drink and what to eat/not eat, and that if they follow the rules God will grant them health, wisdom, and strength and "even hidden treasures"(!) It doesn't mention exercise or weight but various prophets* have made their own commentary, exhorting members to stay healthy in ways that (like much Mormon doctrine) reflect the times they were speaking from. (*church leaders - they are considered prophets because the Mormons believe their church has authentic priesthood, i.e. a direct line to God. After you're baptized, the Holy Spirit enters you and when you pray, God himself will talk to you! And apparently if you're a high enough authority figure, God'll tell you things that you can then impose on the whole church.)

vevintage

When you mentioned a book called 'More of Jesus Less of Me', I was really hoping the book was called 'More of Jesus, Less of Cheeses' 😄😄😄

Kim Bleasdale

I am, unfortunately, here to come to the defense of Joe Lara - those awful lyrics were the work of one Michael Bublé in his song "Everything" which Joe has covered here. Otherwise, another incredible episode! As a female who grew up in the 90s and started her first diet aged 12, I feel both super seen by you guys and also learn so much about my own biases by listening to the show.

Gillian Couperthwaite

I finally watched the Way Down documentary. Regarding the Black family who abused their kids to death, I am not fully convinced the racialized presentation of child abuse is on the documentary. It could also be that white families simply get away with abusing a child to death, without getting charged. So either it is on the film, or the justice system. I mean, Elizabeth Hanna's youngest kid died out of nowhere at 5 months old, and I doubt there was any kind of investigation even about that.

Vera Horvath

Omg I went to google this book again and the full title is the writing diet: write yourself right. Disgusting.

Rukma Sen

oh my goodness, I did NOT know this was a thing. Julia Cameron is on the one hand, amazing, and on the other hand, has way too many books. I would say that this is definitely one that did not need to be written.

J.R. Weisser

Would love an episode on Julia Cameron's "The Writing Diet", yes, that Julia Cameron of morning pages fame. Her book, while not explicitly religious, is VERY similar to some of the stuff covered in this episode. As a midsize aspiring creative writer with a giant need to lose weight complex, it ruined me when I read it.

Rukma Sen

That carousel wishing well verse is from a Michael Buble song

Zelph On The Shelf

I did not know that "Christian weight loss" was a thing. I'd love to hear more about this and any other religion-based weight schemes on a future episode. I know nothing about Mormons for instance, but do they have a similar "fitness" or "health" plan (aka: weight loss for God) component to their community ministry?

Marcia Bagnall

Yet another episode idea...Lisa Lillien aka "Hungry Girl" - my mom and I were obsessed with her recipes back in the early 2010's. Being married to Dan Schneider is a big enough red flag, but to give recipe/diet advice when you're "not a nutritionist, just obsessed with food" - yikes.

Molly

I take back what I said, you do not need to do an episode on how to use Patreon. I figured it out!

Colleen Thompson

OPOV and R!!! Genius!! I’m making my students incorporate this in their writing starting TOMORROW!

Kelly Read

I'm from New Zealand and the church in the doco is baffling to me. Its totally alien and appears absurd. The weirdness of the church is enough crazy, even before adding "be skinny for Jesus" etc and bouffant hair from the 80s. I agree with others that this could of been a much better doco, and there was way more that could of been unpacked.

VL

Lol

Lori

GirliEZZZ YYY did u set me up like this ??? I’m listening to this on my iPad at work and Miss Gwendolyn’s (no offense boo) startling pic popped up on my lock screen in full 8”x6” glory in front of so many coworkers I’m humillIAATEEDD. Lololol jk jk, well that did happen but I just do not care lmao. This was super interesting though, I always love hearing both of you’re critiques on films or shows.

Allie

This episode just got me through uploading grades for 42 midterms. Thank you. I was feeling unreasonably sullen about it until I heard Aubrey laugh. BTW: I listened to your very first episode with my 16 year old step-child and it sparked such meaningful, honest conversation. Thanks for being such an engaging means for addressing what can be hard to talk about. When I suggested listening to the podcast, they asked "Is this who you call your 'friends'?" and I was delighted to say yes.

Leah Anderson

Yes!!!

Kayla Childs

Y'all are the best. I knew this documentary felt weird and not great but I didn't have any idea how to talk about it. I'll take Mike's righteous anger about storytelling any day.

Jane

You mentioned noom in this episode and I'd love to hear an episode about it.

Ellen Quay

I only see Noom ads when I watch figure skating, and I have a lot of feelings about it. Glad to see that Ashley Wagner spoke out against the sponsorship in the context of well-known issues in the sport: http://www.getitcalled.com/u-s-figure-skating-its-time-to-say-no-to-noom/

Crystal Robinson

Also, I was reminded recently of a diet book that came out in the early 2000's called French Women Don't Get Fat. I thought it could be an interesting window into race, class, and weight since a white, western European woman is held up as the ideal. The particular shiftiness of this book title struck me when I tried substituting other nationalities in place of French. Like seriously, wtf was up with this fad?

Allison

I enjoyed this episode. It always puzzles me when writer or directors totally miss the most interesting aspects of a story!

Allison

So sad that the only song on this dude's record that was decent enough to play in this doc was a cover...

Anna Pruett

Lol it’s a Michael Bublé song 😂😂

Amanda Nwas

I really get the sense that this documentary lost its path when they died in the crash. It seems like they were putting their narrative together but when she died it derailed the producers and they were like f*ck it...let's just throw together what we have. Thanks for doing this! Edit: I don't want to give them too much credit. It's not a great doc, and it seems like they didn't have a focus or the desired interviewees to begin with to build any narrative at all.

Erin Macdonald

the show gets better and better every time I listen! Would love to hear your thoughts on fat camps, also an episode on intermittent fasting (it keeps appearing all over my social media at the moment and seems like a recipe for disordered eating). Your work is amazing, love hearing you both!

Aisling O'Connell

Ditto!

Cara Levine-Brenner

When I feel particularly crappy, I turn on any MP episode to hear Aubrey laugh. It’s like balm to the soul.

Kat Black

You mentioned Noom recently, I think in this episode? And I keep wondering if you guys might do an episode (or part of an episode?) On Noom. It gets advertised to me constantly, and I think if I hadn't started listening to Maintenance Phase I probably would've tried it out. I love maintenance phase, you guys have completely changed my relationship to my body and I feel a little more armored against the constant barrage of diets and body shaming that seems to flow in from all directions. I would love to hear your thoughts on Noom!

Kayla Childs

This is 1000% a compliment for Audrey. Your laugh fills me with joy. It reminds me of a fun cartoon-y witch laugh. So theatrical and full

Brittany

I am so relieved - it really had me thinking, "am i just not focused enough? why am i not following anything?"

alice

I'm so glad you did this one! I watched the first episode of this thing, because I love a train wreck. But I didn't realize it was a series until HBO Max was like "do you want to watch the next episode," and my immediate reaction was, "It's a series?? Good god, no, I've had plenty of it already!" Of course, listening to y'all talk about it is a delight.

Jean B

And/or "Dr" Joe Dispenza

Vera Horvath

Please please please do Louise Hay & Hay House

Vera Horvath

Not sure if I should finish the documentary on HBO first or this episode 😫

Madison

“Seeking the Straight and Narrow” (Lynne Gerber) would be a great next chapter in this conversation because it has much more of lived experience of the fat people - and gay people - who were in these Christian programs trying to change their bodies to repent.

Deb Burgard

I once did an intense workbook called “Weight Loss God’s Way.” Would love to hear your thoughts on it!

Jade Higa

It seemed like she got skinnier by the end of the documentary.

joan talbert

It was an ambitious but lackluster documentary that tried to cover everything in three episodes when really it should have just taken its time and done like... ten, Because it was so short, it really made for some weird and terrible decisions.

Fred Maxon

Those diet book titles were made up right? Like in friends when they talk about porn film names like “Good Will Humping”. They cannot be real.

Ama MB

I think it might ruin it though and it’s got a special place in my heart.

Ama MB

Yessssssss thank goooooodddddd i love you babies

Jaya Joshi

Biiig fan here. Another slam dunk of an episode, a hearty thanks and congratulations. AN IDEA — I think a Queer Eye episode would be right up MP’s ally! Lots to explore w/ subtle and overt fatphobia in the show’s subcategories and overall message of “self-improvement.” Rock on.

Hannah Leatherbarrow

Thank you for saving my time! Didn’t hear about it until your show, but glad I missed it. Also, donating again because you both gave perfect insight on how a documentary show be presented and that is a valuable lesson! And I would love to hear what Michael’s boyfriend thinks of Maintance Phase; every time Michael brings up a comment he said, it makes me laugh (and think). STAY AWESOME YOU GUYS!!!

DAVA SILVIA

THANK YOU! You all nailed it on the head with everything. Toward the diet conversation, it ABSOLUTELY blew my mind when they were like "Weigh down is intuitive eating but with Jesus." As a newbie in the IE crowd, there was NOTHING about my friend's conversations around the Weigh Down Workshop were all about restrictive eating. "I prayed my way into eating only one oreo" and such. So either the documentary was wrong labelling it as such, or this is one of the ways that IE can be twisted to become a restrictive diet.

Heather Lunde

Definitely the closest one I can think of in my experience with Christianity and weight loss. (ugh why'd you have to say his name? I just call him the Anti-Poor Guy.)

Heather Lunde

Joe Lara passed away in the same plane crash as Gwen that is why they couldn’t talk to him.

Ramona Creighton

Interesting how she got her start selling her program to many churches - does that make her the Dave Ramsey of the weight loss industry?

Amy Moorman

Aubrey your laugh is everything

Heather Binagia

Thank you so much for this! I could not finish this documentary and just thought it was so bad. Mike articulated all of my problems with it so much better than I could have.

Maria Brosterhous

laaaawd i just googled and saw her hair. what a COIF!—-and oh i just realized she’s not alive. i’m sorry

J

i never heard of this show or the religious weight loss books?!? we in HELL 😂😂😂😭

J

Can the show offer stickers with “Logistics Queen” now?

webb12

Ashley Omg yes Noom! (Hello fellow 5'8"-er!) Their way of classifying food unfortunately re-triggered my old bulimia habit during the pandemic (I'm healthy again now). I have huge issues with them!

Ashley

Guys you really summed it up, thanks! Also, can you please please please do “NOOM”; I tried it and quit when they told me to eat 1200 calories a day as a breastfeeding 5’8 woman - ugh! I should have known

Kirsten

If you are interested in religious dieting, you could look into Seventh Day Adventists (Kellogg was one). I grew up in that cult denomination and diet is a huge part of it and certainly is a big part of why I've struggled with disordered eating and self hatred. It's a whole trip, I think ya'll will be intrigued.

ScorpySue

Thank you for putting my complicated feelings about this documentary so concisely. It was intriguing but also terribly edited. This podcast is my carousel, my wishing well, and lights up my bell.

Sarah Brinks

Wait - those lyrics at the end are also in a Michael Buble song called Everything??? Add plagiarism to the list of crimes 😂

Margaret Knapp

A potentially interesting (but one-sided) development out of Nashville today: https://www.newschannel5.com/news/newschannel-5-investigates/gwen-shamblins-will-potentially-worth-millions-leaves-nothing-to-her-remnant-fellowship-church

Noelle S.

Christian weight loss goes back way further than the 1970's. I'm a Christianity historian. These kinds of tenets were extremely popular in several branches of protestantism (think puritanism, self-abnegation, denouncement of vice and excess and pleasure, etc.). It goes back even further if you consider the history of spiritual fasting more generally (the body and the spirit being essentially at odds with each other, so you deny the body to purify or strengthen the spirit.

Laura H.

Wow thank you guys so much for this one! I watched this series when it first came out and couldn’t put my finger on why I didn’t find it compelling AT ALL. Thanks for actually doing the research and telling a much more interesting story!

Nicole

They did discuss her trinity teachings in the documentary (episode 2, iirc), in both interviews and an animated explanatory graphic. They also mentioned her expulsion from the Church of Christ and discussed some of the differences between her teachings and the teachings of that denomination. Thanks for sharing your personal experience and the publishing context! That definitely helps explain why the church created its own media infrastructure.

Ozzie

Yes! I just saw Michael Buble in concert last week and now I'm concerned!

Alison Gerrior

I would love to hear an episode on Christian Weight Loss books/programs. Yikes.

Joanne BooksCatsAndTats

If anyones is interested there is a great YouTuber who does deep dives into Christian Fundamentalists and she made a video on Gwen some time ago. https://youtu.be/KvIZzx_tJwQ

Joanne BooksCatsAndTats

PS...I would love if you guys did an episode on intuitive eating. 👀

Molly

As an Austrian I am mostly just confused by all of this 😄

Veronika Z

Man, my week has been positively shitty, but having TWO (2) new MP episodes to listen to has been one of the few highlights. Thank you for sharing your talents and banter with us, Aubrey and Mike!

Molly

Came here to say this, I immediately heard Aubrey quote the lyric and went “oh shit I know that song!” 😂

Ariel Schieler

oh shit all the other comments are well thought out commentary

sam

When I watched it, I just assumed that it was an incomplete work. I thought that they were mid-production when the plane crash happened and threw a huge wrench in the works, and they decided to release what they had to capitalize on the moment. As a complete miniseries, it was incredibly unsatisfying, but I thought it worked OK as the teaser to a much bigger story that would unfold.

John McCall

Yep. Atheist here—this is as close to divine guidance as I get.

Catherine Cooke

Lol did any one else recognize the lyrics "You're a carousel, you're a wishing well and you light me up when you ring my bell" from the Michael Bublé song It's You? Now I want to know who had the lyrics first lolol.

Cheyenne

I just want to mention that the documentary isn’t over yet, so some questions may be answered? There are 2 more episodes that are delayed until the Spring because of the unexpected plane crash.

Kathryn Gallagher

I really appreciate the critical eye you both bring. I admit I was totally hooked and couldn’t look away. But I am only one or two degrees removed from Gwen and others in the documentary. People I know worked for the Weigh Down and one close friend’s college roommate lost her sister to the cult. In fact, that sister was meant to be on the plane with Gwen when she died but had a sick child and stayed home. They were on their way to to a Trump rally (OF COURSE!). I think my prior knowledge of the systems and people involved may have filled in some of the blanks for me without me realizing it. To me, one of the most disturbing parts that wasn’t discussed is the time they brought church members in to interview them about their sins because they needed someone to blame for Gwen’s grandbaby dying of SIDS. The footage of her daughter at that time was heartbreaking and horrifying. My mom, aunt, and grandmother all did the Weigh Down workshop at our baptist church in Texas. Just seeing the cover of her book made me sick to my stomach. So much damage done to so many people. Did anyone watch the show Midnight Mass on Netflix? The way Gwen Shambling managed to baptize disordered eating reminded me of the way people in Midnight Mass were so ready to believe something wicked was good. Something that was taking their blood, the force of their lives was seen as something redemptive. That’s what the Weigh Down and the Remnant did/does. And finally, why is no one talking about all the children in bright red lipstick singing in a minor key?! It’s like they googled, “how to look like a cult.” That really creeped me out and made me so worried for all those kids.

Kristi Brokaw

I thought a lot of these plot points didn’t make sense to me because I took an edible before watching

sam

I forgot how badly it explained everything because I knew the fundie Friday’s background! They didn’t even really focus on the degree to which she controlled their eating. They also seemed to take the words of all of these people who absolutely had stakes in what was being told. Like we’re hearing from people going through messy divorces with people in the church?! (Still loved the guy who was getting a divorce)

Riley MacKinnon

Thank you for this! I was also super frustrated with this documentary. It felt like it was treating child abuse and murder on par with like a messy divorce in a really upsetting way. And I feel like they never explained why it was a cult! Because I’m terms of level of control and child abuse promotion, it is on par with any other evangelical church. Which, if that’s your thesis — that evangelical churches are cults, I’m here for it. But that’s not what they were doing.

Jennifer

Because it’s full of secrets! ( but realistically she was probably hiding anorexia induced hair loss)

Riley MacKinnon

P.S. The book -The Weigh Down diet- came after the WDWorkshop (with the videos, cassette tapes, and workbook) was going strong in churches. She was already a rockstar in the Bible Belt, but the book made her more mainstream. That’s when she went on Larry King etc.

ANGI LOVEJOY

I was so ready to devour this doc in its entirety but at the end I feel like it was a bit of a waste of time. Y'all explained so many holes in this story! I feel like the stuff that should have been focused on was so glossed over and I was just like "that's it?"

Bailie Jones

I’m about to listen now. I was a kid/teen when my family was IN this church/cult. I lived literally across the street from the church, my folks still live there, but thankfully GTFO. I Agree w comments saying the doc missed some stuff but it also wasn’t wrong, it only skimmed the surface. Gwen was initially very devoted & kind (if fatphobic) but as power grows so does corruption and while this is a unique and extreme example of souther church power culture going waaaayyyyyy to far, I’d say it’s very very common in churches in the Nashville area (even if it doesn’t rise to this cult level, most are teeming with power hungry Narcissist (even the pastors who started out in a truely earnest place). If I have more thoughts I’ll ponder them later here lol.

Hollyn_RieRie

They never explain her hair. WHY DIDN’T THEY EXPLAIN HER HAIR???

michelle detwiler

Ugh! *in pursuit of power

Megan Merrick

I'm listening now, and I have to say I disagree about the notion that if you're in person power, you wouldn't want to start a church. As someone well acquainted with evangelicalism, I'll say that starting a church is the ultimate goal for people who crave power. In that tradition, it gives you ultimate, unquestionable power and authority AND there's lots of money to be made.

Megan Merrick

Thank you for explaining why this documentary was unsatisfying. In addition to Fundie Fridays on YouTube, the podcast Sinisterhood did a series on Gwen Shamblin for anyone who wants more.

Jill Christianson

Yes, I was fundamentalist-adjacent for about 10 years (evangelical church), and I wish they would have examined exactly how they were different from more mainstream churches (in that they are actually not that different minus the doctrinal difference mentioned by another commenter).

Jill Christianson

Totally agree about the weird, “our daughter married one of them!” storyline. They way they were framing it, I was sure that their daughter and that guy had been on the plane when it crashed. But no! They’re just mad. Which…ok? But not liking your son in law isn’t a particularly novel experience!

Dana Rockey

I grew up in fundamentalism and found this documentary's subject matter to hit way too close to home - what they are calling a cult is really only one step further from what is considered mainstream. I agree that as a work of media it wasn't the strongest, but I was still hooked

Mara S

In answer to Micheal’s question that isn’t in the documentary, Gwen starts the church because she breaks with Christian doctrine regarding the Trinity. She beloved and taught that all three parts are not equal, and God the father is above the other two parts (Jesus the son and the Holy Spirit). She was kicked out of the Christian church for this, and her publishers dropped her. (I was working for one of the publishers at the time). This belief is 100% against standard Christian doctrine. She was no longer considered a Christian by the world at large. That’s why the locals are whispering about the church and how weird it is. They skip this part entirely, but it’s huge to her story. Gwen was very friendly in person and incredibly demanding. She 100% believed in what she taught. She was clearly not a person you could reason with. I was relieved when I didn’t have to work with her anymore.

Liz Walter

I think the links are on their website (I cannot access it atm for some reason) and at least one clip is linked on the episode description on the Apple podcast thing

Katrin Willms

My partner is from the town right next to Brentwood and she had so many feelings about this doc, especially since she was worried that it would invite Tiger King esque gawking at the folks who were part of the “church”

Natalie Escobar

okay yes thank you for confirming my suspicion that this documentary was somehow way more boring than the actual events

Hayley

Yeeeessss!! I was really hoping you guys would make an episode on this. Thank you!

Laura H.

@Catherine Cooke--- right??? I'm an atheist and i would sooo join that church too! 😊

Clara Nipper

I think I'd probably join that church.

Catherine Cooke

I am so grateful to you both, Michael and Aubrey, for bringing the light of critical thinking, reason, intellectual discourse and humor to the world! Joke warning- I'm about to make a joke, but it in no way lessens my sincerity or admiration of you both. Please start a church! And I'll agree with but only what you two observed but also with what the other comments say- y'all nailed it! I kept blaming myself as i watched this crappy thing that it was ME. I kept waiting for it to redeem itself (sorry about religious connotation) and as you both so accurately pointed out, there was so much more meat everywhere, EVERYWHERE else and they kept focusing on crumbs. The story about the couple who lost their daughter was not only a SNOOZER but also, amateurish and misleading! I thought the daughter was dead! And yeah, a lot of jokes could be made about how marriage is suicide for women, yuk yuk or marriage into a cult is suicide, har de har but the film makers flat out fooled me into thinking the young lady had killed herself. When actually, she was only married and tentatively re connected to her parents? Oh the horror, shiver. So thank you guys again! Can't wait for the next podcast!

Clara Nipper

Yes. A favorite creator!

Anna Rutledge

for anyone who wants to know more about this without sitting through the most boring documentary ever made, lookup up fundie fridays on youtube!

Lindsey

Is there any way to get links for videos and audio clips y'all share in the shows? I need to see those Angela Lansbury clips!

Rachel Maeroff

The Joe Lara song you shit on is a real song! It’s called You’re Everything & I’m familiar with Michael Buble!

Sarah Frueh

I’ll be honest less interested in the church more interested in the diet book which is what messed me up.

Katharine Macy

Thank you for this but also for the future Christian diets episode….needless to say part of why I’m not anymore.

Katharine Macy

So glad you covered this, and Aubrey and Mike, you were so spot-on about all that was glaringly missing from this doc. There is so much story left uninvestigated and untold. Thank you for being the mouthpiece for the thoughts that were screaming in my head as I watched this mess of a series. Love the work you both do to spread a bit of humanity and critical thinking

VeggieLisa

Are you guys familiar with Fundie Fridays on YouTube? I think you’d like her work on Christian fundamentalism and she has a video on Gwen Shamblin

El Bill

I watched this documentary twice. A few things didn’t sit well and right out of the gate Mike & Aubrey nailed it. They talk about people without those people having any voice in their own stories (yeah- the dad who alienated his teenage daughter by banning her from dating her bf.. who goes totally unexamined & is just taken at face value), and the fact that they don’t advocate for fat people- they zero in on Gwen as crazy, but in a way that absolves our culture of the fact it does the same thing way more broadly. Aubrey nailed it - we see Gwen as bananas for calling fat people a moral failure, but at no point do the filmmakers point out how deeply entrenched that assumption is (just minus the obvi Jesus overtones)

Christy McGillivray

👆🏼👆🏼👆🏼👆🏼agree with Emma!

Christy McGillivray

I always suspected it but this PROVES it. Mike, Aubrey—- you need to get into the documentary film making business. I don’t care what the topic was, I know you two would make it impossible not to get invested in.

Emma Cook

I still can’t get over the Holocaust reference. Who looks at the photos of that atrocity and gets weight loss inspiration? Everyone would turn out that way in those extreme non relatable conditions. People recovering from those conditions have to be strictly monitored so they don’t basically eat themselves to death. You don’t turn them over to a buffet.

Cassandra Huete

I was raised in the church of Christ (PK and MK) as well. In the early 90s, the Weigh Down Workshop was a big deal in a lot of congregations here in the Bible Belt. I tried it two or three different sessions. This diet plan left me feeling like I wasn’t spiritual enough, didn’t really love God, and was probably just a terrible person since I didn’t lose weight. We watched videos in class, and had a workbook and cassette tape set to use at home. I remember very clearly one video in which Gwen said something like, “God is my good-lookin’ boyfriend. I want to be good-lookin’ for him too.” In another video, she showed us how to eat one M&M over a whole minute. Michael mentions he doesn’t get how she recruited for her new church. The Weigh Down workshop community was huge. There were giant conferences, and Gwen was a rockstar. When she was starting her church, it was announced at the conference, and in the class materials. People moved from around the country (and I think some families from other countries) to join New Remnant in Tennessee. Gwen revealed to her congregants that she was their prophet. This is a source of spiritual power she could have craved, since within our traditionalist church background, women have very limited roles. So, the idea that she craved this specific kind of power makes sense to me.

ANGI LOVEJOY

it’s 2:17 am and i will be listening rn

Daisy Tackett

I’m going to save it to get me out of bed in the morning

Paige Showalter

At midnight? Guess I'm busting out the airpods at this ungodly hour

Hannah Scott