POD 110: MDMA psychiatrist Dr. Casey Paleos on the FDA's rejection of MDMA
Added 2024-08-12 23:02:55 +0000 UTCMAPS public statement on therapist abuse
Planet of Cops by Freddie deBoer
My Scarlet Letter: Living with the Aftermath of Psymposia's Unethical Journalistic Abuse by Martin Ball. This is worth a listen. At 27:30 Martin Ball describes Psymposia trying to convince his former clients that they had "Stockholm syndrome" if they didn't conceptualize themselves as victims of abuse. I find this particularly troubling. It prompts a question I've had about their close relationship with the two MDMA trial participants who have been outspoken against MAPS: Was Psymposia responsible for a type of manipulation or coercion analogous to the coercion that yielded false accounts of satanic ritual abuse during the Satanic Panic of the 80s and 90s?
Adeptus Psychonautica and Psymposia go head to head another great example of Psymposia using superficially reasonable criticism, while ignoring the fundamental fact that there was not a single identified victim of Martin Ball. This is Psymposia at their best and Brian Pace still comes across as an officious, humorless, condescending, moralistic bureaucrat.
Comments
You do seem to be missing something because this is no minor bump...it's keeping this psychedelic therapy from being available to people who could really benefit from it for longer...potentially years.
Creepy Crawley
2024-12-31 04:24:26 +0000 UTCIt's so funny when you think about how other new psychopharmaceuticals have been treated, for example when SSRIs like fluoxetine (Prozac) were introduced, there was such positive hysteria, you'd think they'd discovered a panacea, a cure for everything. Of course now we know that SSRIs are not only addicting but pretty much ineffective as antidepressants. And now, we're discovering that compounds that were reviled for decades are actually quite useful in not just depression but many other conditions. It seems to me that there's some confusion between the pharmacological agent and the therapeutic modality....IMHO the FDA should be allowing MDMA (and other psychedelics) to be dispensed just like Prozac was back in the 80s - let the therapists work out the gory details.
Steven
2024-11-09 20:13:53 +0000 UTCThis guy Casey speaks so beautifully
Shawhin Layeghi
2024-10-28 15:18:16 +0000 UTCHave you tried making or playing with noise music? Or harsh electronic music? Could be a nice outlet for you especially if you have a scene in your area
Shawhin Layeghi
2024-10-27 22:46:07 +0000 UTCThis one needs to be uploaded to YouTube Hamilton.
Sean Qualischefski
2024-09-25 00:48:05 +0000 UTCI resolve henceforth to measure as much as possible in the volumetric unit of hot tubs.
Kenneth Bingham
2024-09-19 11:01:31 +0000 UTCIt's a podcast where someone is speaking off the cuff and in brief so of course he's not gonna say everything he thinks and knows. Calm down.
5hydroxytryptameme
2024-09-12 02:30:15 +0000 UTC💜💜💜
Kenneth
2024-09-10 18:47:12 +0000 UTCNo, just know a hell a lot more about the parties involved than you. Also, I don't hide behind aliases in discourse.
Sean Kiernan
2024-09-10 15:27:02 +0000 UTCSo by your logic, if you're an anti-fascist who trash talks neo-nazis and warn the neo-nazi in this analogy of the violence, you're the one stoking it. You are a ridiculous person and transparently not in good faith.
Dandelion
2024-09-10 05:29:29 +0000 UTCDandelion you obviously are not following very well or comprehend the discussion. Given your comment above, a logical take is you are not here for discussion. Your analogy breaks down when you warn someone of violence you yourself are helping stoke. Then once you recognize the ones stoking the anger are conflicted, have a long history of misinformation themselves, and a trail of veterans pointing fingers at them for exploitation. It makes one wonder if the delusion is a byproduct of self-interest or a side-effect from doing too many psychedelics without proper perspective. The later being a serious consequence of unchecked privilege in my experience.
Sean Kiernan
2024-09-09 16:12:43 +0000 UTCIf someone (who is moreover apparently afraid of violence) wore a swastika armband in NYC, and you warned them this is unwise and you might get attacked, that is not a threat of violence. It's merely stating basic facts. It's absurd that countering blatant defamation is "throwing aspersions," to you but implying that this in context innocuous comment is a murder threat, is not.
Dandelion
2024-09-09 02:54:15 +0000 UTCD) All the above. Or this sentence: " That is directed to Representatives of Congress & Veterans getting incentivized and paid by the institutions at hand, along with all the private market self-interest that seems to most of us, as inciting and using veterans, not actually trying to help them."
Sean Kiernan
2024-09-09 00:13:39 +0000 UTCWhere did anyone incite veterans to do one's bidding? Pointing out that someone has lied is not histrionics, nor is it an "amateurish rationalization."
Hamilton Morris
2024-09-09 00:00:54 +0000 UTCIt is clear, few have the interests of veterans in the forefront of their mind. However, a lot have in their mind how Veterans can help them. That isn't a Psymposia thing either; that is simply an American thing. So besides Pysmposia, maybe we should examine the entirety of what is going on, including MAPS, Lykos, the FDA, and those for profit efforts to bring orphan drugs to market to address what currently is not being addressed in any productive way by our institutions other than the black market. Regarding Veronika Gold, I can't speak to that claims validity, nor do I see it as essential to the issues at hand to be blunt. That issue being the suicide and overdose epidemic. Stating I have "credulously" engaged with Psymposia content would be taking any communication I have had, albeit small, more out of context than your own words in the aforementioned podcast. Ironic enough, Psymposia would be the entity of all those in this story, I have the least interaction with. My experience with MAPS, Lykos, Rick, all the aforementioned drugs, the FDA, and others does not lead me to the same conclusions you have arrived at. Inciting veterans to do one's bidding is not something that is either productive or healthy. That is directed to Representatives of Congress & Veterans getting incentivized and paid by the institutions at hand, along with all the private market self-interest that seems to most of us, as inciting and using veterans, not actually trying to help them. To be blunt, the histrionics regarding psymposia's impact seems amateurish rationalization at best. The inciting of veterans is dangerous at a minimum, and at worst, blatant exploitation.
Sean Kiernan
2024-09-08 23:21:55 +0000 UTCI'm glad that you are the CEO of a veteran group and that's great you are working with Cannabis. I strongly encourage you to examine the possibility that Psymposia do not have your interests in mind. You absolutely can speak to the truthfulness of Nese and I can as well. This is because she lies repeatedly in a way that can be examined and fact checked. Nese claims that Veronika Gold "pinned down a patient" the source she provides, which is taken wildly out of context, says nothing about pinning down a patient. She was reading from a prepared script (as were all the other Psymposia members) she knew exactly what she was doing and it was a lie that had real consequences. It was also a federal crime for her to lie during that hearing. She lied about MAPS being a cult, then she lied about MDMA psychotherapy being a form of "facilitated communication." Now she is taking this interview out of context on twitter. I see you credulously engaging with Psymposia's content on twitter, there can't be policy reform if these people try to destroy everyone fighting for progress.
Hamilton Morris
2024-09-08 21:39:01 +0000 UTCIn response to your reply starting "On the off chance": I can't speak to the truthfulness of NESE, or you. Criticism is valid, but I don't share the assumptions underlying your assumed truths, that NESE or any other individual sunk the Lykos application with the FDA. It was ultimately sunk for systemic reasons. Criticism works both ways, criticism of NESE and or Psymposiam is valid, but also criticism of MAPS, Lykos, its employees, its studies, the FDA, Congress and so on is also valid too. We are in the middle of an absolute disastrous outcome due to bad policy. I believe it would be better to focus on that policy, than to focus on fueling hate, or perpetuating stereotypes for laughs that don't lead to more laughter. Make no mistake about it, NESE is being threatened. Ironically, there is no proof its veterans, although we are not without blame either. I would hope, the adults in the room, would focus on helping bring solutions, not throwing aspersions or blame that simply is a mischaracterization of history and what happened.
Sean Kiernan
2024-09-08 18:45:56 +0000 UTCActually I am CEO of Weed for Warriors. The largest disabled veteran group dealing with cannabis use for veterans with PTSD in the Country. I have worked with MAPS, Rick, and know Psymposia and most of the people behind the scenes. I think your quote deserves a simple response, so I asked. If you believe it's taken out of contex, say so, but please, veterans deserve a response to what seems like a quote that would have been better off not made. However, I nor veterans are woke snowflakes, so asking you directly seems better option than just assuming or filling the outrage as that seems the unaccountable podcaster's job. For clarity, I didn't know NESE, and was just made aware of her a few months ago. If you want to take the perspective I am simply a NESE fan, I think you are misestimating the intent of my question and where we can take this. I think Veterans deserve a response. I will await what is hopefully a professional response to a reasonable question.
Sean Kiernan
2024-09-08 17:50:25 +0000 UTCOn the off chance you are asking in good faith: Nese lied repeatedly in order to prevent the approval of a treatment for mental illness that has been oriented toward treatment of veterans. When she was criticized for lying, her cronies said that it was dangerous to criticize her because she is afraid of mentally ill veterans killing her. I then point out the glaringly obvious fact that if someone is terrified of being killed by mentally ill veterans it's probably unwise to lie to the FDA in order to prevent them from accessing treatment for mental illness. We then laugh at the absurd and contradictory nature of Nese's position. Any additional questions?
Hamilton Morris
2024-09-08 17:45:27 +0000 UTCThis is now becoming popular among Nese's outraged twitter followers. It's ironic that they are taking things out of context in an interview about taking things out of context.
Hamilton Morris
2024-09-08 17:33:33 +0000 UTCI have no history of bashing my own head on solid objects. More just a veteran curious about the commentary. I will await a response.
Sean Kiernan
2024-09-08 17:32:54 +0000 UTCYou didn't even listen to the podcast! You know how I know that? You tweeted this 10 hours ago https://x.com/SeanKiernan_WFW/status/1832577395989295274 and posted this 9 hours ago!
Dandelion
2024-09-08 10:39:37 +0000 UTCLiterally rewind the podcast by 2 minutes and there's your explanation. Do you have a history of bashing your head on solid objects?
Armchair Idiot
2024-09-08 09:48:41 +0000 UTCWould love to hear an explanation of this: "If you're so afraid of mentally ill vets coming to kill you, probably a good way to begin would be to not interfere with mental health treatment for veterans." Lykos co-PI Casey Paleos, laughing out loud: "Right!!"
Sean Kiernan
2024-09-08 01:27:01 +0000 UTChaha that's lovely.
M
2024-09-07 19:16:25 +0000 UTCM, what a nice playlist I've just listened to, that YouTube generated after Skinny love. Thanks for reminding of that song
Alex Omelchenko
2024-09-07 17:55:22 +0000 UTCThe stuff he says from 48:30 is probably the best thing I've ever heard being said about "conventional" psychopharmacology
Martin Paridon
2024-09-06 15:33:05 +0000 UTCThe described philosophical background of seeing the body-mind complex as being able to & actively aiming towards healing itself is a paradigm shift I hope MDMA/psychedelic therapy will bring to the psychiatric field on a larger scale. I think the "psychological suffering = broken brain + med away the symptoms" view is disempowering & easily results in years of unnecessary medications.
Honey-el
2024-09-03 12:38:57 +0000 UTCNo kidding. The plot thickens... 🤔 Thank you for informing me.
Luca Marvel
2024-09-03 01:59:35 +0000 UTCOh! I didn’t know it was a pseudonym. In conversations, I just distinguish him as the “bad” David Nickles
Lily Smith
2024-09-01 15:49:17 +0000 UTCThank you!! Looking forward to the interview with Ingmar 💗
Lily Smith
2024-09-01 15:19:16 +0000 UTCNickles is a pseudonym fyi
Hamilton Morris
2024-09-01 03:45:56 +0000 UTCThanks so much for this comment and correction, I conducted an interview with phase III therapist Ingmar Gorman yesterday and I will add this correction to the intro.
Hamilton Morris
2024-09-01 03:44:52 +0000 UTCin the intro he said "i tried to be balanced and kind" haha
M
2024-09-01 03:06:56 +0000 UTCThank you, Hamilton, for doing this interview! I worked for MAPS PBC / Lykos from 2020-2023 and it's been an emotionally exhausting few months seeing so much misinformation spread about research that was done in a scientifically sound manner. This interview felt like a band aid for my little wounded heart. One of my roles in the research was coordinating the review and adherence ratings of the psychotherapy used in the clinical trials. It’s been frustrating how little this aspect of our work has been discussed in the media--I’ve heard lots of claims that the therapists did whatever they wanted and there was no standardization or quality control on the psychotherapy. When, in fact, there was a whole team dedicated to precisely this task and we have the data to prove it. Casey was great in the interview, and I loved how much he brought up the adherence criteria (we clearly trained him well!). I'd like to correct one error you made in the introduction. You said that there's been criticism that the Phase III trial only included 104 participants. We actually conducted two Phase III trials, MAPP1 and MAPP2, which in total had an n = 194. This (relatively) low number of participants for a Phase III was not because MAPS PBC / Lykos was trying to cut corners or limit the budget of the trials. Instead, it's because the effect sizes we saw in the Phase II studies were so huge that our power analysis (a calculation of the number of participants needed in a study to see an effect, if one exists) indicated that that was the sample size we should use. No pharma company would ever conduct a trial that exceeded the number needed to correctly power a study, because it would be a silly waste of money. Criticisms around the size of our Phase III is another example of folks without a full understanding of how research works trying to twist something into a negative that is actually completely in line with industry standards.
Lily Smith
2024-09-01 00:48:29 +0000 UTCWhere was this in the interview?
Lily Smith
2024-09-01 00:40:21 +0000 UTCthe use of skinny love lyric 🕊️🪽
M
2024-08-31 23:03:00 +0000 UTCSo you missed the whole malicious lying about harms that didn't occur part?
CSN
2024-08-30 07:15:44 +0000 UTChttps://arstechnica.com/science/2024/08/more-bad-news-for-psychedelic-drug-company-fda-expands-probe-after-rejection/?fbclid=IwY2xjawE8U5pleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHc1sM-g_D2kHf25Yp7J9H4JsS1gwki63MVvpJlxaekBZlP3bwphUVAfwNQ_aem_kqAijXSDgI3VAGIl6ILmiQ
Bushy Haired Stranger
2024-08-28 19:04:13 +0000 UTCMDMA will likely be approved, soon. So in place of inflaming the aspects one disagree’s with since this is very likely a temporary circumstance, I believe its best to stop, adjust ones emotional volume and try to accept situations as they play out. One issue to consider is the point that HARM was the primary component to this FDA outcome . Most of us want harm reduction in all arenas of drug use, medical and recreational. So unless I’m missing something, this is a minor bump in Maps/Lykos’s road to medicalization. Funny, most of the people in the conversation were all friends as mentioned in this interview. I prefer having people around me that dont agree with everything I do and say. In fact it those I disagree with that often call me out on things I fail to see. Change is inevitable.
Bushy Haired Stranger
2024-08-28 00:22:33 +0000 UTCThis is truly a sad and disheartening outcome for Lykos. In FDA approvals, often it isn't enough to be right. They started this approval process long ago before the effects on PTSD was even known and yet durability was purportedly the main reason for rejection I have heard. I am hoping they use this experience to deliver the evidence to get this much needed product available as soon as possible.
Suzanne Austin
2024-08-27 04:24:55 +0000 UTCI was so hopeful that the FDA would approve it despite Psymposia's best efforts, so this is incredibly sad to see. I've got cPTSD myself, and I've benefitted greatly from psychedelic therapy. It's awful to see Lykos cutting 75% of their staff and Rick stepping down as well - I hope everybody lands on their feet. So disappointed.
Shaun
2024-08-23 10:27:22 +0000 UTCAs always, you are a blessing ❤️
Lilveiss
2024-08-22 16:21:42 +0000 UTCGiven how educational this video is, I hope it is added to a public space soon. This is what people need to learn about.
Marley Cote
2024-08-19 23:00:47 +0000 UTCI feel like what Psymposia has done has shown how important it is to remain neutral when others try to force their ideology. Psymoposia firmly believes that MAPS is a cult because that supports their ideology, and any evidence to suggest otherwise is a threat to their ideology (strong "us-vs-them" and "you're either with us, or against us" vibes from Psymposia). Like with the issue of the SRA during the 80s and 90s, there were far too many people (therapists) who jumped into something because it supported their ideology, and clients suffered the most for it. It's such a shame to see that could be repeated now by an organization that claims to be anticapitalist and pro-client rights.
Marley Cote
2024-08-19 22:59:15 +0000 UTCThe MDMA super soldier narrative is so funny. I remember something very similar in the first season of The Next Generation
wumpwump
2024-08-19 19:11:10 +0000 UTCAlso, I hate that this guy has the same phonetic name as David E. Nichols. You don't deserve your name David Nickles!
Luca Marvel
2024-08-19 14:26:50 +0000 UTCThis is a really great interview. Immediately donated to Maps and dedicated donation to the FDA. Dr Peleos is incredibly good at being diplomatic in his criticisms which I hope I have learnt from. Love his clarity in general but especially in that he seems to really know what his position is and how to put it across in thoughtful way; love listening to people who are so wise and calm in a world full of reactive loud-mouths and the ‘ever proliferating fractal of pedantism.’
Meek
2024-08-19 07:47:58 +0000 UTCGreat find. If you ask me David absolutely floundered. He didn't directly address a single one of Jonathan's statements. And him saying at the end that he actually resigned from Psymposia just feels to me like he's deferring his responsibility for his journalism in the past. What a mess. Looking forward to seeing him embarrass himself in the upcoming full-length segment.
Luca Marvel
2024-08-19 00:24:40 +0000 UTCHe uploads certain episodes to his YouTube channel for free after they’ve been up here for a while.
Mark Hertzler
2024-08-18 21:56:01 +0000 UTCFound this: https://youtu.be/lttFB0c0cAo?si=exph4i89y2c9TFB1. Isn't it obvious that Psymposia is determined to destroy MAPS and doesn't want MDMA to be approved under any condition? I'm surprised they haven't been sued for slander.
Adam Perkins
2024-08-18 19:25:10 +0000 UTCIn my opinion, episodes like this should be public. How are people going to learn anything from this if they never get to hear these pieces of information?
Martin Paridon
2024-08-18 09:57:17 +0000 UTCThis is absolutely heartbreaking. I don’t know what more to say .. but I feel like the actions of psymposia are approaching evil. Classic wolf in sheep’s skin scenario. Hamilton, thank you for being a light of reason in a dark time. Hopefully this is just a roadblock.
willows
2024-08-18 02:16:13 +0000 UTCI still can’t wrap my mind around the fact that this is happening—or has already happened. As a psychologist working with active duty service members, a former Army officer, and someone who views MDMA as a uniquely powerful tool for overcoming suffering, I’m deeply disappointed.
Adam Perkins
2024-08-17 06:31:18 +0000 UTCI couldn't agree more. Hamilton your perspective here is a desperately needed breath of fresh air. If at all possible please make this one available. Thanks for doing such a great interview!!
Tristan
2024-08-17 00:05:24 +0000 UTCSeconded!
Jonathan Borroto
2024-08-16 21:39:54 +0000 UTCAs someone who is in the field of mental health I love this Hamilton please release more interviews like this🙏🏼
Ch3mistree
2024-08-15 19:47:05 +0000 UTC@Mr Buttermaker - they are phenomenological descriptions of symptoms and signs of a mental illness. By definition, they are not intended to be etiological.
Andrew
2024-08-15 19:43:36 +0000 UTCthank you for saying this. Overarching theories of everything ("All DSM diagnoses are related to trauma") are inherently oversimplified and unhelpful (there are several well-publicised non-psychiatric clinicians who have sold a lot of books and workshops based on this notion). They lead clinicians and patients to try to fit a patient's symptoms to the theory. What happens when someone has psychiatric symptoms and has no trauma history? We did this in the 80's with repressed memories that extended into the absurd - "child sacrificing satanic cults" - and it didn't end well.
Andrew
2024-08-15 19:42:20 +0000 UTCAs someone who is in the field of mental health I love this Hamilton please release more interviews like this🙏🏼
Ch3mistree
2024-08-15 19:11:09 +0000 UTCIt seemed Dr. Paleos was extremely selective with his words throughout this interview, and his intentional use of "nearly everything" was no exception. I think to treat "nearly everything" as "everything" is likely just as much a generalization as he would be making in such a claim. That being said, if we are all committing to being overly-pedantic, I imagine the number of diagnoses outside of the "psychospiritually traumagenic" category is large enough to go with "a significant majority" rather than "nearly everything." Ultimately I think his comment was at least as well-intentioned and well-informed as yours, but I feel that the DSM-V and the prevailing diagnostic model need no protection from attempts to promote more holistic approaches to mental health.
Josh Galloway
2024-08-14 22:17:57 +0000 UTCJust hire a private detective on the ones speaking bs and use their own weapons against them: simple undermining of their authority, sue them for libel and slander (to the people that were wrongly quoted or accussed of stuff), etc. Make them afraid of doing these kinds of things without any backlash whatsoever. I mean, MAPS can just ask for volunteer legal help and dozens of good lawyers will wholeheartedly help them to get rid of these opportunistic roaches. So many things that can be done to have a PR defense that are just not done because of a naive "wE aReNt tHaT wAy" mentality.... that its just sad.
Alejandro C.
2024-08-14 21:07:20 +0000 UTCI'm reading Neşe Devenot's letter that is referenced in the podcast. (https://www.regulations.gov/comment/FDA-2024-N-1938-0043). While it certainly could not have helped making this case for approval of MDAMPAP, the claims it makes are so incredibly far fetched. The therapy cult accusation is just the beginning. What basis is there to claim that MAPS fundraisers employed hypnosis on potential donors? It so outrageous that I can't see their efforts being taken seriously by anyone.
Tom Meade
2024-08-14 17:10:32 +0000 UTCPodcasts are brilliant. You have such a good voice Edit: I love the CofP.M. guys (I think they started with great intentions) but I agree w you Hamilton we should all be working together on this. :/ I thought at one point they found an improvement to the Marc Julia route. I could be wrong but I think they’d have done better to focus their PR on that and not litigation
taylor gautreaux
2024-08-14 15:56:30 +0000 UTCIt's unusual to have retraction of articles from the literature to say the least, but it doesn't surprise me. I think it's a matter of time before MDMA is added to the pharmacopoeia - I'd like to live to see it, though I really expected it to happen this year. Thank you kindly for covering this topic Dr. Paleos and Hamilton. Insofar as people risking their freedom for supplying MDMA goes, I believe there's plenty to be had out there, but please remember to test any black market substance you imbibe! Dancesafe sells excellent test kits and fentanyl test strips are ubiquitous these days - better safe than sorry - cheers.
Steven
2024-08-14 15:08:37 +0000 UTCI have tried EMDR. I was being treated at a Domestic Violence Center and my therapist was moving. The new therapist told me she would cure me that day with a new therapy. I didn’t know her, wasn’t comfortable and I dislike being touched which she kept insisting was part of the therapy. I left with a migraine that lasted 2 days. I never went back for therapy. Therapy is great if you can afford it. If you can’t, you get a case worker and medication and no treatment. PTSD wasn’t a diagnosis given to women of domestic violence. I was diagnosed with anxiety and depression. It took years to get a diagnosis. I am at a point in my life where I have accepted my reality. I have overcome my anger issues. The only issue I truly struggle with is the nightmares. I wake up and don’t feel like I slept or had any rest. Sleeping aids exacerbate the problem. I am unable to wake up out of the dream and stay stuck in it. I have already incorporated a lot of cbt and other coping skills into my everyday life throughout the years just working on myself. It’s like any other experience in life, you don’t know unless you experience it. I agree with processing therapies. There’s a unique balance that has to be found between the therapist and the client for it to be beneficial in my opinion. I play piano to distract myself and relieve stress. Music has been my main outlet for releasing stress. They scream for me and it’s lovely.
Monica Mendez
2024-08-14 02:25:58 +0000 UTCJames Kent has a couple red flags in my opinion. But he does give some decent view on what ketamine addiction is like considering he's a ketamine addict.
M
2024-08-14 01:25:34 +0000 UTCDid you say James Kent? What did he do? I only know him because I used to listen to DoseNation years ago.
Alfred Larsson
2024-08-14 00:16:12 +0000 UTCThis was really good! I appreciate Hamilton's discussion of the topic, giving his informed opinion, and also Dr. Paleos' take on this as well. That's why this podcast is still the best $5 I spend every month. I've mainly listened to Psymposia, and even James Kent, because they seemed to be the only real counter point to the exuberance I've noticed taking up the majority of the psychedelic narrative. But, I also think that they have really changed from informed and reasonable to a model of constant criticism and commentary without actually offering alternative solutions (James Kent was always a little sensational about his views on his podcast, even from the beginning). That has gotten old. I can appreciate Psymposia's "decriminalize all drugs" message, the critiques of capitalism, their broad questioning of psychedelic efficacy...but I agree that the full court press against MAPS/Lykos seems to be more of personal vendetta rather then reasonable critique. I do wish this informed push-back against Psymposia had come earlier and more broadly, but can't go back now.
B-Boy Bungus
2024-08-13 23:02:41 +0000 UTCPsymposia's tactics read like maga tactics. Making MAPS Biden, so we just need the Kamala/Walz of psychedelic organizations to step in with the positive rational vibes. While I'm being silly here, being silenced by fear of irrational retaliation is a horrible feeling, and the instinct to protect yourself is perfectly reasonable. When I can't win, I go Midwestern on their asses and kill them with kindness. I'm guessing they wouldn't be into a public debate or some sort of truth and reconciliation process.
stephani peters
2024-08-13 22:58:03 +0000 UTCMy extremely elementary understanding of the law makes me think that maybe Lykos would be better off being the ones to sue for defamation since they have a for-profit interest? I mean, they have invested millions of dollars into making this therapy a reality and have kickstarted a national phenomenon of publicly traded psychedelic stocks. Considering all the money involved, I would figure this approach would be the most efficacious in terms of getting heavy hitters involved. And then again, all this would likely ride on proving that FDA operated negligently or outright unethically by taking Psymposia's propaganda at face value and/or ignoring legitimate evidence because of a preexisting bias. I'm totally spit-balling here, as I have no legal background, but I have to admit that I have been wondering the same thing. I certainly am not one to advocate fighting fire with fire, but in a situation like this in which the entire future of psychedelic medicalization/legalization is affected by one decision, maybe more drastic measures need to be taken? Especially considering people like Neşe Devenot have a PhD... and she teaches at Johns Hopkins. Considering what happened recently with Claudine Gay, wouldn't prestigious academic institutions want to be especially careful about the academic integrity of their staff at a time like this? In any event, I don't think 40 years of passionate dedication and hard work are going to evaporate into thin air...
Luca Marvel
2024-08-13 21:45:36 +0000 UTCHearing that intro was cathartic Hamilton. Nothing else to add other than I hope this message can be delivered far and wide. Even if it means just releasing the intro on YouTube and keeping the Pod for Patreon.
Simon
2024-08-13 21:12:50 +0000 UTCHamilton what can be done? If we wanted to call congress people or write an open letter do you have any suggestions? Can maps sue psymposia? This is just enraging, there must be something we can do.
Quinn
2024-08-13 21:09:41 +0000 UTCThanks for sharing! Curious if you ever got the chance to try EMDR? (I think EMDR with MDMA or mushrooms would be an absolutely fascinating study). CBT can be a good starting point but I'm always surprised there's not more discussion of what different therapies do. Processing trauma in a cognitive way can be slightly helpful but it doesn't get to the depth of it. The therapy used should match the issue and with something like PTSD, it's beneficial to have a cognitive distraction. The theory being in short, you busy the person with a task or activity, this is a high enough cognitive load that the person can't employ their typical (perhaps maladaptive) coping mechanisms, and things that are typically suppressed can rise up more gently or without someone noticing since they're "at capacity ". Art and expressive therapies are a good match for PTSD as well because it not only has the activity, but allows for a communication method that is not verbal.
mia
2024-08-13 19:44:58 +0000 UTCCorrect, just a statement on his argument. There are lots of flaws with the DSMV and very many valid arguments against it which I support. And it's good to question the intent and helpfulness of diagnostic tools. But a blanket statement like that, without sufficient evidence, and with established evidence showing the contrary in multiple diagnoses, is cuckoo bananas. There are symptoms and disorders that are benign, not rooted in trauma, correlated with genetic mutations, etc. and to over generalize like that is at best a very narrow lens on the complex human system and at worst irresponsible.
mia
2024-08-13 19:20:48 +0000 UTCAs many others have said, I've been eagerly anticipating your perspective on this most depressing matter and am left feeling that you did an exceptional job articulating the confusing nature of everything going on surrounding MDMA psychotherapy right now. If it weren't for concise and well-researched discussions like this I fear that many people, myself included, would not know what to think about all of this because, as you mentioned, the onslaught of mis- and disinformation is so torrential that anyone not spending a lot of time researching this may feel as if the rug has been pulled out from under them. I commend your work once again as this is a crucial message to hear at this time and I hope it will be made freely available soon if you are able to do that. I only wish there was something I could do to make a difference with all of this. I am currently pursuing a BS in psychology and am nearing the end of my program, so maybe I'll integrate this into some sort of a capstone research project to be submitted as a senior thesis... Either way, I'm definitely going to dig deeper into this topic because I believe this occurrence with Psymposia's attacks apparently being so influential on the public's opinion and, potentially, FDA's decision is deeply disturbing and emblematic of the culture war we find ourselves in the throes of. Thank you Hamilton and thank you to this community for everything you are and do. I hope this will turn out to be a time of solidarity and reflection for us all 🙏
Luca Marvel
2024-08-13 14:21:59 +0000 UTCI was sort of thinking the same thing. If there were to be some one that could protest with people who were helped by mdma or call out the lies in the hearing and at least making sure the FDA understands their lies. Idk very sad and disappointing. I also hope Rick Dobblin can continue his work with MAPS. I know it's 40 years of work kinda of down the drain, but I hope that something can be done to help reverse this decision sooner rather than later.
BigRigRick
2024-08-13 13:44:44 +0000 UTCThere have certainly been other episodes that I would love to share with people. But this is actually really important for this specific moment in time. Policy has just been determined. Media outlets have whipped people into a frenzy against their own interests. This episode is a light in the dark right now. It’s a slap in the face and a sobering “Why do you believe this shit? Because some asshole said so? That’s rich.”
Cameron Mitchell
2024-08-13 11:45:05 +0000 UTCYeah seems like making it available would be the right thing to do right now
Matthias
2024-08-13 11:36:16 +0000 UTCJust finished the intro, and I must say I’m a bit surprised that this episode is unavailable to those not paying for a Patreon subscription. Your perspective here feels too valuable right now to be paywalled. I want to say that it’s too late anyways; that there’s no reason to make this shareable since we’re not going to reverse the FDAs decision. But more-so than that, I feel like the sooner people within the psychedelic community can hear this, the more effectively the criticism of Psymposia will stick. It’s pretty apparent that critical analysis of news sources is essential for the progress of drug policy reform. Everyone who cares about this should have some resilience in their stance instead of being so easily swayed by something as trivial as a tabloid with trippy pictures on its website. And I feel like getting this out there as much as possible will at the very least sow some seeds for the next round of attacks on psychedelic medicine and policy reform. Sidenote: I know the FDA isn’t a “call your representatives” kind of thing, but isn’t there some way to pressure them to reconsider? Like, the FDA is still just a bunch of people. If their phones are ringing off the hook for a few months straight with well articulated critiques of the arguments being made against the approval of MDMA assisted therapy… maybe we can make something happen? Maybe?
Cameron Mitchell
2024-08-13 11:32:18 +0000 UTCFDA can kiss my arse.
Salvadoran Salvinorin
2024-08-13 10:53:18 +0000 UTCare we arguing semantics? Then yeah it's not an argument, it's an assertion, or an assumption if you will. Common sense, scientific consesus, a simple fact... would be other words that come to mind. If Mia had said "stating nearly everything in the DSM-5 is the result of a traumatic psycho spiritual wound is cuckoo bananas because there is no evidence to the fact AND because that's the kind of logic often found in people diagnoses as cockoo bananas" THAT would be an argument
Martin Sona
2024-08-13 09:30:42 +0000 UTC🧘
M
2024-08-13 09:00:38 +0000 UTCSomething to think about and look into is other PTSD treatment studies. I was part of a CPT research study for the treatment of PTSD. After the first week I wanted to quit because it’s an adaptation of CBT. I felt like it was hopeless and I would never get over my PTSD. Mdma had helped years ago. This was a new trauma and remnants of an old trauma causing a relapse of PTSD. I did 3 grams of mushrooms after I decided it was hopeless. I figured it could only help. I couldn’t imagine it making it worse. I don’t remember much about that night. I told my son my plan, locked my door and started reading the messages my therapist had sent the first week of the study. After it was done I puked for about 10 mins and then went to sleep and the next morning I felt f&ckin& fantastic. Like a dark cloud had been removed. My father started calling me smiley. Back to my point a lot of studies involving PTSD have suicidal ideation and some have actual suicides. I don’t think it was the therapy that made me feel hopeless it was the fact that I thought the therapy would actually help and after learning the premise of the therapy was my world view had been distorted and I need to learn bad things happen to good people. I’m not stupid and that was such condescending bull. Stephanie Foo’s book “what my bones know” is the best example and honest representation of how CPTSD feels. Life long trauma has life emotional reactions. I don’t believe there is a cure. There are ways to put it in remission. The worst part of ptsd is any simple thing can trigger a relapse. Our brains are complex and the triggers aren’t always obvious. I hate that there are people with no understanding of how difficult it is to live with PTSD and because they have a degree can say with a straight face that it’s my fault I’m suffering I just need to do a worksheet to help me feel my feelings. It does help for a while. Processing trauma is difficult but with the help of a therapist you’re in a safe space and if they are good are able to make you feel like you’re not being judged for your feelings. I did finish the research study after my mushroom experience. I was honest with my therapist and told him I felt great and wasn’t in the same frame of mind. I figured he was getting paid for his participation and it was free talk therapy. Although the mushrooms did the heavy lifting my therapist helped me iron everything else out. I recently had a relapse and the ptsd isn’t as bad this time. Sorry for the long response. TLDR - PTSD isn’t entirely understood, suicidal ideation is normal in my experience, especially when in therapy and feel you hit a brick wall. Preventing this drug to be available to those who could benefit from it is evil and selfish. Most organ transplants are rejected by the body, yet they are still performed everyday with the hopes they will not be rejected. Their success rates are horrible but better than 10yrs ago. I honestly think a lot of these people don’t think PTSD is real. Thank you Hamilton for all your due diligence and dedication to this topic. I hope someday soon they are able to use your work to make better decisions regarding legalization of these drugs. Or someone with common sense in Washington puts an end to the DEA’s prohibition on drugs in general. I hope I don’t come off as a nut case. I get scatter brained sometimes.
Monica Mendez
2024-08-13 08:58:52 +0000 UTCHamilton "had chickens sacrificed on my body, my pubic hair ritualistically shaved with a rusty razor, my nude body scrubbed with an alcohol soaked living guinea pig, watched children be given psychedelics had animals sacrificed over them bathed in blood and buried alive while tripping" Morris. Important podcast, thanks for putting this out ❤️
Aidan
2024-08-13 08:37:35 +0000 UTCNear the start with your commentary on traditional techniques you experienced vs. what you mentioned was absolutely hilarious, infinetly wise, and beautiful Hamilton. That list of practices you experienced cracked me up so much and your point was articulated in an excellent way. Too many pampered wierdos speak on things they don't understand. Made my night man 🤣 Thanks.
Austin T.
2024-08-13 07:37:45 +0000 UTCNot an argument. What are these diagnostic labels then?
Mr. Buttermaker
2024-08-13 03:45:50 +0000 UTCAs my ire has been rising over the past several days over these decisions (the advisory panel rec, then the official rejection), I've been eagerly awaiting this episode. Very excited it's here. Having kept an eye on certain spheres of social media, I can confirm that Hamilton's assessment of the state of the discourse is, depressingly and frustratingly, accurate. Overwhelmingly, people are falling all over each other to praise the FDA, showboat about how well they understand "the science" or "the evidence," and piss all over MAPS/Lykos/Doblin/psychedelic therapy in general. It's bewildering and infuriating.
Zach
2024-08-13 02:21:23 +0000 UTCOkay I don't like being the party pooper!!! ...but stating nearly everything in the DSM-5 is a result of a traumatic psycho spiritual wound is cuckoo bananas
mia
2024-08-13 02:18:55 +0000 UTCFascinating conversation. Dr. Paleos expressed many ideas that reflect what i learned during my undergraduate education in psychology and natural sciences, along with independent learning i have done. I have grown very skeptical of paradigmatic psychiatry of this day and age, it serves its purpose and can be helpful, but i do not think medication on its own is sufficient in treating the lack of purpose and trauma many people deal with in their lives. I also think viewing spirituality as a way of describing the incomprehensible and unknowable complexities of life is very beneficial for people’s psychological wellbeing. I do not think it is incompatible with a materialist worldview either as the use of spiritual concepts are describing complex psychological phenomena that cannot be grappled with without the use of more symbolic, less literal forms of language.
Addicted to Chloroform
2024-08-13 01:25:36 +0000 UTCThe infinity of human stupidity, especially at the level of institutions, never ceases to amaze and dishearten. It is only because of people such as yourself that care to keep track of all this craziness that layman like myself is able to appreciate the stupidity and irony of such situations. Thanks for being a voice on this. I hate to have the thought but as I get mature the ideals of some future state in which drug laws across much of the developed world are more enlightened feels more and more like being an idealist leftist wishing for the abolition of capitalism or something. Maybe the often times confusing and nuanced nature of drugs is something that humanity will always deal with in a largely sloppy and moralistic way. Seeing the backlash to decriminalization and harm reduction in BC where I live (which is largely understandable and in some ways justifiable) has been a big wake up call for me.
Materialmind
2024-08-13 01:19:30 +0000 UTCThank you for getting this out so quickly. Excited to listen and learn
Nathan Stichter
2024-08-13 01:09:07 +0000 UTCAnd thanks Hamilton to be one of the ones who care and will fight back🙏 i'm sooo 😡 mad , sad, and feel miserable about the lack of empathy of this world 🌎in general and how FDA self elected non accountable people's has tremendous amount and unquestionable powers, the system is rigged and rest of the world for the most aligns with FDA/DEA's decisons, giving none rationals patriarchals or partisans, verdicts from stone ages. 😡
Simon Musimix
2024-08-13 00:40:49 +0000 UTCThat's such a shame for institutions involved in that decision. As you said there's some people who can't wait and who will terminate their life as they may have been saved. It unfortunately remind me many others "dangerous and improper treatments" although proven efficacy in a moment where there was nothing else available... Someone is drawning falling from a boat, there is buoys and life vest available (unfortunately they haven't received their final approval test by whoever's in charge: So in results let's not throw the poor guy anything to stay afloat and let's watch him drawing 👏👏👏👏👏. Great 👍
Simon Musimix
2024-08-13 00:35:13 +0000 UTCThanks for posting. I got into an argument with someone from Psymposia years ago about how their behavoir and tactics was putting drug reform at risk. They just ranted and raved. I checked out from psychedelic conferences and what was going on for years because these people dominated so much or conversation it was was nauseating. Glad your calling them out.
Justin F
2024-08-12 23:36:11 +0000 UTC🙏🏽so much valuable info in here. thank you for putting this out in the world. what a strange time🌍
Gabe KS
2024-08-12 23:22:33 +0000 UTCjust listening to dr. Gül Dölen on psychedelic therapy prior to listening to this, so very sad to hear this because the research is showing so much promise in changing behavior. (and lives!)
jennifer
2024-08-12 23:16:03 +0000 UTCThanks Hamilton. I’m really interested to learn more about what’s going on with all this.
Jeff gorski
2024-08-12 23:09:20 +0000 UTC
