POD 109: Dimitri Mugianis on medical ibogaine
Added 2024-07-30 06:49:06 +0000 UTCIn this episode I talk with former underground ibogaine facilitator, Bwiti initiate, and harm reduction advocate Dimitri Mugianis about the underground history of ibogaine, his response to the Bryan Hubbard interview, and his far-reaching thoughts on addiction and medicalization.
Dimitri Mugianis' writing and other works:
Ibogaine helped me beat heroin addiction, but I oppose Kentucky funding psychedelic research
The Corporatization of Psychedelics would be a disaster (coauthored with Ross Ellenhorn)
Magic mushroom companies are on the Nasdaq now. That’s a recipe for a bad trip (coauthored with Ross Ellenhorn)
I'm Dangerous with Love (a feature length documentary)
Dimitri Mugianis speaking at the 2008 Horizons Conference
Dimitri’s Ibogaine Talk at Barcelona
On Point NYC harm reduction
Other ibogaine resources:
The Ibogaine Story: Report on the Staten Island Project 💯
The Highest Dose of Ibogaine Ever Consumed
Alex Wodak’s Ibogaine Opposition Talk in Barcelona
Howard Lotsoff's Ibogaine Talk at Barcelona
Natural Tramadol, Synthetic Ibogaine
Misc:
The Black Panther Party Ten-Point Program
Comments
Yes.
Creepy Crawley
2024-12-31 04:14:08 +0000 UTCI appreciate Hamilton's counter points to these kinds of points Dimitri is saying. Iboga/Ibogaine has amazing anti addictive properties and being available in any way is appreciated for me. Medicare and Medicaid could possibly approve these substances and for use in the poorer population and even if it's available to just rich people...shit, it's needed. Even if it only helps 5% of people who undergo iboga/aine therapy, I'm all for it. That's less people dying and or having their lives ruined from addiction. Yes, it's no magic silver bullet but it is extremely helpful for people and even if it's being preyed upon by corporate entities as just for profit...I'd much rather have that possibility for some people then SSRIs and Benzos and Antipsychotics and Methadone, etc. being the only options people have in the "system". Like Hamilton said, this will help some people and be a net positive.
Creepy Crawley
2024-12-31 04:12:21 +0000 UTCThe founder of the Black Panther Party (Huey P. Newton) and author of the ten point program was pretty adamant about the group not being drug users, at least at the onset (he wrote about this in Revolutionary Suicide) . I’m pretty skeptical of the claim the 10 point program was written while he and other members were on acid.
Joseph
2024-10-02 21:46:20 +0000 UTCMan I finally finished this. It was great. Also, I'd love to hear an Ari Shaffir - Hamilton Morris conversation. Either you on his podcast or he on your's
Cheminterested
2024-08-27 22:35:27 +0000 UTCThis is a really great companion piece with the previous Kentucky Ibogaine program podcast. This dude really knows what he's talking about.
Miika Henttonen
2024-08-25 15:20:30 +0000 UTCFucking love that nutjob
E Lee
2024-08-24 13:59:48 +0000 UTCGreat talk! Thank you Dimitri for all your work in the field 🙏 . I remember watching your documentary before I did ibogaine and how much hope it gave me. “Addiction” is complicated. I love the idea of holding people and hoping for the best possible outcome. That is real harm reduction
Kate Sandoval McCabe
2024-08-24 00:11:14 +0000 UTCReally great talk as usual! Really appreciate this guy he’s a serious dude. Would love to hear his stories. Definitely agree he is over compensating but always refreshing to hear people not evangelising to the point of fanaticism, which is often the only acceptable discussion in this world I find. Does Salvinorum/salvia have anti-addictive effects? Last time I took it about 10 years ago I was drunk and had forgotten how powerful it was and the ‘spirit of Salvia’ told me off and showed me how bad alcohol was before telling me I must worship Salvia. Sadly I ignored the call and have been too scared to take it again haha.
Meek
2024-08-20 18:22:35 +0000 UTCRolling Stone just published (8/14/24) an article on an Ibogaine death at a retreat clinic. Rather informative, interesting and wide ranging, although the title leans towards the "scare-tactics". Worth a read. I felt like this group would be interested, so here's the link: https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/ibogaine-pychedelic-benefits-dangers-death-1235079364/
B-Boy Bungus
2024-08-16 15:29:20 +0000 UTCBig time appreciate your talking to those who are less excited (in addition to those that are excited)... it's an important part of this a lot of us have been avoiding. Honestly I thought ibogaine cured all addiction and that's why it was so unique until about 5 months into my postdoc.... The truth is somewhat in the middle" is perhaps the best way to approach any and all of this!! Thanks for your work. Related side note: I also think we should talk more about alcohol addiction with ibogaine because alcohol withdrawals are INSANE and ibogaine is supposed to help with alcohol, too. Ps I work with Luca (whom you just met) at Sames lab and would looooove to connect.
Hannah Goodman
2024-08-12 21:27:10 +0000 UTCGood comments Pvt. Idaho.... After 25 years of psychedelic usage, my excitement about psychedelics effectiveness in the recovery situation has greatly shifted. I liked that Dimitri had a little more reserved take on the effectiveness. l ate a handful of mushrooms 7 years ago, stopped a longtime alcohol use problem (6 years 8 months sober today), waited 3+ years ate another handful and stopped a daily 20+ year cannabis habit (3 years 4 months sober today). But my recovery sponsor ate some mushrooms, then gave up on recovery after 6 years, and is currently relapsing. Plenty of my friends from younger days that experimented with me on all types of psychedelics are currently assholes with long-term substance abuse and personal problems, and their previous experiences hasn't "vaccinated" them from these problems. This leads me to believe that the overall effectiveness of psychedelics for substance use disorder is going to be lower than people would like (echoing Dimitri's reserved attitude). My own informal poll of recovery (without-psychedelics) at various groups is about a 10% long term abstinence from usage of the problem substance. The book "The Sober Truth" gives a similar number (8%?), and also states that "spontaneous" recovery (without group/program/medication, has a roughly similar rate (8%?). I'm going to assume a standard bell curve with psychedelics for recovery usage, probably 10% helped, 10% hurt and a wide swath of 80% that remain in the center. My few visits to Psychedelics In Recovery group meetings was exceptionally weird. Multiple people discussing psych-department holds due to over consumption of psychedelics, while also still believing that these things were the "key" to their recovery etc. Multiple people discussing the wide range of substances they were now using frequently (increasing usage), microdosing leading back to multi-pack-a-day cigarette habits (common), relationship problems related to psychedelic usage, job loss etc... The scary part was that the group was dismissing problems, and couldn't (or wouldn't) recognize psychedelic related usage problems. I have no experience with Iboga, but from what I am hearing about Ibogaine, it may provide a better treatment option for opioid dependence due to a different physiological effect on withdrawal, so fingers crossed... Really I thought the Dimitri and Bryan Hubbard episodes to be really good compliments to each other; really shows how complicated all the intertwined issues are.
B-Boy Bungus
2024-08-12 20:50:28 +0000 UTCAnd ketamine too... Plasticity in life not just neuroplasticity....... Nice
Pvt. Idaho
2024-08-12 20:19:10 +0000 UTCAnd to be clear I appreciate what Hamilton is saying as well. It feels like Dimitri is gung ho to give voice to the community aspect of the meta, and it's coming at the direct expense of materialist structures and the material of the molecules catches some of that flak. I get where he's coming from... I've seen DMT turned commodity before my eyes and meanwhile I'm there trying to work someone through something that's painfully clear to me and I think often to the other party... And when they conceive of a drug as "The Thing" and then that Thing doesn't magically teleport them to their best life path forever and ever (which is to say if it doesn't successfully enough take a hammer to the parts of their psyche that have been coalescing into their erstwhile habits)... cue Dimitri deemphesizing the transformative power of these substances. I can understand it. But in the end I can't say I disagree with the "get it in the institutional door, keep it safe from the whims of culture and media, normalize it" approach championed by Hamilton. Deep stuff.
Pvt. Idaho
2024-08-12 19:11:45 +0000 UTCIs the community chat gone?
Kenneth
2024-08-10 03:15:46 +0000 UTCSolid lawyers by many ways, and great interview. Really enjoy dialogue and especially time you give to all your guests to answer without unnecessary interruptions or post-prod cuts👍. Thank you Hamilton 🤍
Simon Musimix
2024-08-07 20:20:16 +0000 UTCthat fella probably tweaked out of his mind making those posts lol.
Eoin
2024-08-07 16:20:46 +0000 UTCLoved this one, really enjoyable listen! Dimitri sounds like a really cool dude
gossamer
2024-08-07 02:19:03 +0000 UTCThis is one *intelligent* functional illiterate! Love this guy, love this talk. Thanks again Hamilton
Pvt. Idaho
2024-08-07 01:59:40 +0000 UTCSad to hear an idealist being frustrated as he shows about the impotency of good solutions, because people would go back to their shitty lives and fill again with black those canvas that were somehow cleaned a bit by the treatment. Its really noticeable how this topic affected him and even shows some signs of chronical deppression, but even though he went all over the place trying to show his point, its a very good one: we cant try to fix human issues with the symplistic mechanical approach of "tweak this button and you fix it", there has to be structural changes to address the root causes.of the problems. Seeing mountains of funds going to elaborate commercial schemes to "help" while knowing that the real solutions where at least partially ignored for monetization's sake is really sad. Kudos to the guy for adding his drop to alleviate human suffering without wasting time and life seeking self interest goals!
Alejandro C.
2024-08-03 19:47:23 +0000 UTCI wish Jake and Logan Paul would just disappear from everyone consciousness. They can stay in the machine elf realm for eternity for all i care.
Helmer
2024-08-03 15:08:14 +0000 UTCI wonder if Hamilton knows who the N- isopropyl zodiac killer really is 😂
taylor gautreaux
2024-08-02 09:24:24 +0000 UTCHe talked about how we need to change the world, the whole economic system, I'm fairly sure he's an ancom and a true believer I'm not throwing shade he just seems like an idealist, but a good dude
zealot
2024-08-01 07:19:31 +0000 UTCAnother banger. I think my expectations were somewhat lowered by the intro, having so enjoyed the Bryan Hubbard episode, but this one was just as good, and in many ways a perfect complement. I'm tremendously sympathetic to Dimitri's perspective, and I think he raises extremely important points about a holistic approach to healing and addiction, even if I don't think he ever quite makes the case that legalization via the medical model would be a net negative. It's interesting that, despite political perspectives that are pretty much right in line with Dimitri's, I remain persuaded that de-scheduling of Ibogaine (or any other drug) would be a major step forward, and worth the risks. The contemporary tenor of US leftism tends to be more antagonistic to the (very real) threat of corporate power than to that of the state, which makes the issue of drug legality disappointingly and unnecessarily fraught (it's one reason, I should note, of many). Yes, a purely medical model will be insufficient, but I don't see how it won't still be a mark of genuine progress, however flawed and incomplete. I'm all for building the kinds of communities and networks that Dimitri imagines--I find his ideas inspiring--and for that reason I think removing one of the tools of the state to persecute them (which they surely will if ever they seriously challenge business as usual, which is, after all, the point) can only be considered a net good. He is clearly a brilliant and humane person, and I'm excited to follow his work, and grateful to have discovered him on here.
Zach
2024-08-01 02:12:29 +0000 UTCThanks Hamilton!
Xanadu
2024-08-01 01:23:38 +0000 UTCAnother great episode.
B-Boy Bungus
2024-07-31 18:42:41 +0000 UTCI wouldn't call this call an idealist. The LAST guy he interviewed on ibogaine was much more of an idealist. This guy is much more realistic.
M
2024-07-31 17:36:49 +0000 UTCGod I love an idealist fantastic episode
zealot
2024-07-31 07:10:28 +0000 UTCI think that this conversation is fundamentally a philosophical one. It seems to me that Dimitri's primary criticism stems from a feeling that we are at risk of losing the essence of psychedelics, at least according to the understanding that we had of them in the '60s which was by-and-large incomplete and largely spiritualized, but which did provide a relatively unifying context for their use. I believe understanding psychedelics must be done with the '60s as a key contextual reference, especially by us folks who didn't live through them, because without it the perspective that people with longer careers in the psychedelic space often hold like Dimitri's will be largely lost on us. To be sure, I don't believe for a second that this went over Hamilton's head and I also think that Dimitri was quite understanding of Hamilton's perspective. I just can't help but agree with Hamilton that, within the framework of understanding that the past couple decades to now may represent rock bottom for freedom of consciousness with reference to drug use, really any movement foreward in the fight for freedom in this space represents a massive victory historically. If medicalization and holding science in the highest cultural esteem are the letter of the day, then so be it. I don't see any reason why this should be pushed against before it has even gotten off the ground, especially considering the alternative is continual criminalization of non-violent crimes which Mr. Mugianis himself was a victim of. Additionally, I see no reason why medicalization and the esteem of science themselves have to represent a necessarily soul-crushing atmosphere under which these practices are carried out. As Mr. Mugianis himself pointed out, some of the best therapists are those that go beyond the limitations of their discipline and incorporate something seemingly larger than themselves and their empirical understanding into their practice. If the people who are bold enough to make this epistemological leap can do so with apparently great results and this is widely recognized within and without the medical community, then why should this cease to be the case with the introduction of a new medical intervention like ibogaine? It is almost as if there were a rigid, dogmatic medical establishment on paper, the best members of whom with a nod and a wink confidently go off-book with success and increasing consistency. I believe this natural evolutionary pushing of the bounds of scientific understanding will always occur as long as science is alive, and so there is nothing about introducing medicalized ibogaine that will prevent this. To the opposite point, removing the hurdles seems the logical choice as they are currently functioning more as an impediment to this natural evolution of science than not. For no better reason, we have already given the idealism of the '60s a fair run. Why not give this medicalization narrative its chance, too? Then we can compare the outcomes of the two. To make the reverse point to what Hamilton made in the introduction, if it turns out that the proper functioning of ibogaine as a medicine does not work without a higher-order spiritual/mythopoetic "container" to put it in, I can live with that. Only after evaluating alternative frameworks for psychedelics adequately will we discover which is the more appropriate epistemological approach to these substances or else which of likely many more frameworks may work better. As is frequently suggested, different people will likely prefer different things and in a society like ours that values individual freedom, no one should be actively putting up roadblocks to other people's narratives on psychedelics lest they cause harm. I'm not convinced, as Mr. Mugianis might suggest, that medicalization will do more harm compared to prohibition. That being said, he's absolutely right that we should be careful and I admire his deeply humanistic and empathetic approach to these subjects and the people at the heart of them. I think Dimitri's view is very positive and hopeful, but I think I agree with Hamilton that medicalization is the first step on the path to an ultimately freer destination because that is the way things seem to be flowing in 2024. Maybe generations from now this first step will lead eventually to Dimitri's integrated community vision, who knows? But we can't put the cart before the horse, swim upstream, pick your metaphor. Anyway, fascinating discussion, particularly right beside the Bryan Hubbard interview. Really great stuff and I appreciate the multi-episode deep coverage of one specific topic like with this ibogaine thing. Keep up the good work 👍
Luca Marvel
2024-07-31 03:27:26 +0000 UTCAbsolutely loved this episode
Scott Sharp
2024-07-31 01:57:33 +0000 UTCI am a goy and JEW is one of my favorites! Great conversation - lovely fellow. I like the full-court press approach to drug availability because another part of community building is about meeting people where they are. As a middle-aged white woman, I feel weird about participating in ceremonies of cultures I am not a member of. I feel weird about participating in ceremonies where I am a member and the reality is I just want to go to the fucking store to buy the fucking thing. I don't want a doctor, shaman, or drug dealer and I don't want to be anywhere other than my house. If I could just be met here, maybe I could become a participating community member again.
stephani peters
2024-07-30 22:34:24 +0000 UTCdoes anyone know anything about the mechanism by which ibogaine circumvents opioid withdrawal? i am curious how it all works
ansley b
2024-07-30 21:04:55 +0000 UTCSweet, thank you good sir
BigRigRick
2024-07-30 17:48:56 +0000 UTCYes, the issue has been addressed refresh the page or redownload
Hamilton Morris
2024-07-30 17:48:17 +0000 UTCSounds like the episode cut off mid conversation at the end. Is there a part 2 to the episode or a mistake?
BigRigRick
2024-07-30 17:46:37 +0000 UTCHi Hamilton, I believe it would be awesome for your podcast series to include episodes focused on the history of individual compounds. This would enhance listeners’ intuitive understanding, particularly when the conversations become complex. Additionally, such episodes could serve as an invaluable resource for anyone interested in the historical and chronological development of various compounds, as there currently lacks a centralized repository for this information. This hopefully would enrich the educational value of your already amazing content and bring light to a piece of history that is in the dark.
Felix Ramirez
2024-07-30 15:23:05 +0000 UTC✌️
M
2024-07-30 13:06:44 +0000 UTCThis podcast is the best! Thank you for doing your thing Hamilton. Much appreciated.
Octopappa
2024-07-30 09:09:09 +0000 UTC
