May 22 Update

Regarding the correction made during the prologue, while you changed Kai's comment to having elves this far west and Altina's to not always being limited to the eastern forests, she still says, "Before the war, we had two different kingdoms in the north..." That north should also probably be changed to west.

Curtis S.

I gave up on 3. Finished out of pure spiteful stubbornness but never went farther than that. 3 was the worst for the stated reasons above but also because it was a classic 'graphics over story' slog.

Argenten

In total agreement here. I figured out pretty quick that there was a time loop of some kind, (the moment I saw all those dead bodies in the first playthrough) and I never trusted Slimey, but still... I've said that gaming has gotten weak over the years (mostly due to the addition of "casual" gamers I think) but this just proved it. The twist was excellent, people are just babies.

Secular Reason

Off topic, but it isn't often I find another Suikoden fan. Did you play five, or did you give up with IV, since so many call it a disaster? (I think III was the bad one honestly, the ship travel in IV was just too slow...)

Secular Reason

Thanks for clarifying, Sierra. There's a logger guy in the bounty hunter camp who says "In theory there's a ton of money to be made clearing trees here on the eastern edge of Ardoheim, but the way things are going, I'm afraid I'll go broke."

Decanter

Okay, sorry I'm late to this discussion! The honest answer to some of these questions is that there are inconsistencies since I made the early parts of the game before I got serious about my maps. The map is my goal for game canon, so phrases that no longer fit should be brought into line with that. The directions mentioned in the prologue are an easy example. Arclent was originally oriented differently and set up a little different, but I shifted it to make the climates work out better and didn't go back and change this bit. I've changed north/south to west/east as you guys said. The Delgar Forest situation is a little more complicated. It is no longer on the eastern side of Ardoheim, so that just needs to be corrected if someone will remind me when that's said. But as for the elven conflict, that's more involved - Delgar Forest is a little enclave with connections to the large elven nations. This will actually be explored in an update or two. As for smaller countries: though many got absorbed into larger nations during the war and aftermath, logically there should be at least some. This map should be considered a slightly simplified version for the sake of the game. (Also, Yhilin's land is relatively mountainous, so despite its size it has less inhabitable/farmable land than some of the other countries.)

Sierra Lee

nice map, I can't say anything to Ouroboros because I haven't found the time yet to play it, but I will.

A1llas

I would say that Zirantia does technically own it, but it isn't prime real estate. I wonder if there are any scams with people offering to sell waterfront property there. It isn't oriented exactly with up being north, but it's close. If you imagine a clock on the map, north would be about 12:15. I agree that the Chosen's comment in the beginning is wrong, now that you mention it. If north was changed to west and south to east, it would work perfectly, though. Arclent is entirely in the northern hemisphere. The equator might pass through the islands in the bottom left corner of the map. Aram's desert is caused by the rain shadow generated by the mountains. Northern Aram is actually the most northern part of the continent, and it has a Mediterranean climate. Southern Ardoheim is savanna and plains. The forests of elven kingdoms might be fed by annual monsoons which lack the power to reach too far into Aram, similar to how the Congo region is fed by monsoons that fail to water the Sahara.

Curtis S.

Yeah, assuming this world works like ours climatically, and assuming up is north on this map, I think it has to be southern hemisphere. There's a question in my mind of what makes the great elf forests possible at the same latitude as Ardoheim, which is not so forested - could be magic, could an ocean current, could be they just have most of the freshwater for some reason, could be Ardoheim is a great plateau, could be something I haven't thought of since I'm not an expert in this area, but I don't think it can be westerly prevailing winds or Aram would have a wetter east coast.

Decanter

I didn't think about the prologue text before. You're right, that is odd. I guess if we replaced Altina's references to north with west, and south with east it might line up better. Other thought, where do you see this being placed on a globe? The location of Aram's "hot" desert has me picturing this as a southern hemisphere continent. What about you?

Rafael367

OK, so Zirantia is mostly swamp. I wonder if Zirantia technically owns all that, the way Canada technically owns a bunch of frozen northern wastes but actually clusters its population near the southern border. Thought of something else: Withered Mountain is west of Feroholm, so the Chosen's comment at the beginning of the game "There were elves this far north?" and Altina's response "We weren't always limited to the southern forests. Before the war, we had two different kingdoms in the north..." don't make much sense with most of those forests being further north and way off to the east from Withered Mountain. Unless the compass rose for this map wouldn't have north as up, but that too would conflict with directions given in-game...

Decanter

I'm long waiting for this game =D

Aluciz

I can't answer all your questions, but I'll try to answer those I can. Zirantia is smaller than it's appearance might lead you to believe. While most of the dark green regions on the map are forests, the dark green in Zirantia is swamp. Basically the southern Zirantian peninsula is like Florida. There is a ridge on its northern edge, but most of that area is only a few inches above sea level. It's mostly mangrove forests and brackish, interconnected waterways. There might be some scattered villages there, but there aren't any great urban centers. Zirantia was originally conquered by the IK via an amphibious assault. While there was heavy fighting there, it wasn't magically drained in the battles the way some other regions were. Feroholm is approximately where the r in Ardoheim is, and the Delgar Forest is indeed the area around the o. Ardoheim was smaller before the war. It expanded afterwards, so there is room for smaller nations around Ardoheim, in Zirantia and in the Incubus King's Domain. On the other hand, Aram used to be larger. It originally extended west of the central mountain range.

Curtis S.

So glad I took that idiot for his *my* land now.

Darthjake

Well, the new prologue is a lot less of a giveaway than I feared, at least. I don't like the new synopsis, but I guess you do what you have to do so that people will give it a chance. It's easy to forget how dismissive - justifiably so, even - one can be as a consumer of indie games, free games, or erotica. Still, I thought it was plenty good before, and I'm sorry the reception ended up being critical. Zirantia is a giant archipelago? That's very unexpected. It being made of "some of the most devastated regions" made me think it would be both smaller and closer to the Incubus King's territory, maybe a peninsula smaller than Yhilin sticking off the northwest edge of Ardoheim. And hm... its position near the dust bowl area south of IK's domain makes me think that forest in the middle of Ardoheim must be Delgar Forest, but that's hardly "on the eastern edge of Ardoheim" or even connected to the elven forests there. But any forest on the eastern edge of Ardoheim appears to technically be Darghelon, and being that far from the blasted region would be an unexpected location for Feroholm. I think I'm missing something. I'm also kind of surprised that there are no smaller nations depicted on Arclent, the kind Vinario was implied to be. Were they all in the west for some reason, in what is now IK domain, Ardoheim, or Zirantia? Or is anything smaller than Yhilin (whose size surprises me) sort of being ignored?

Decanter

Ah yes, I hadn't really counted the mountains. In my head though what I had imagined was if you took the portions where it flares out just before the Incubus King's domain and instead made them continue to shrink along the angle they were going before. Still bordering, but much smaller and a little bit more encompassed by Aram and Ardoheim. It's a wonder how easily perceptions can be warped about the lay of the land. Makes maps invaluable and the fact that you have one now is incredible.

Troqu

I loved Ouroboros. I actually don't think the prologue was necessary at all for the overall story. It did clarify one thing that I was wrong about though. I had decided to go through the first time just doing what they wanted me to do and saw the update with the prologue after I started but before I finished that cycle. Before I saw the prologue I was certain something completely different was going on. I thought that Atreyan was actually an insane villain who thought he was the hero somehow. So glad I was wrong on that cause what's actually going in Ouroboros was much better. Really fantastic stuff, will probably play through it again soon.

Troqu

I'm terrible at picturing maps, so that it doesn't match my mental image is all on me and I love the visualization and art of the above rendering of the first of many continents that Simon will render. Sorry about the release of Oroborus not going so hot, I personally loved the twist and the way the game had a lot of layers to both gameplay, story and philosophy as well. Not sure if I ever gave a detailed review of it, let me know if not and I'll send it soon. My only thing was that I took the moment when Slimy says "go South" as literally the game saying you can't go forward, so I missed that point there, but that was me and not the game. Still, need to play with the prologue and be able to give an accounting of that. Regardless, it is an excellent game and another example that you have what it takes to make it big in the indie game industry. (One of these days patreon comments isn't going to screw with me I swear!) Looking forward to seeing the new update and progression of the plans for Yhilin :D It actually makes sense that the party wouldn't be too much involved with the major battles and I cite 2 major game examples that support what you are doing here. Suikoden 1 and 2. Both were party and turn style RPGs like TLS is and both had army battle mechanics that were vastly different that nevertheless added greatly to the playing experience. Further support is actually given by the 3rd game in that series that went *hard* in the opposite direction, making ALL fights and army battles based on party characters. This made the battles monotonous and devoid of impact beyond wondering how much to grind the minor characters to keep them from being useless. With here, I can see the party fighting in key points, either to break an enemy, go behind enemy likes, or bolster a flagging flank of their own army, basically acting as special forces. This further cements that the army is it's own thing but that the party won't be useless or cut off. I also heartily approve of the fact that the victory won't be in doubt, (enough stuff has been done by simon and the others to ensure this even on the most rushed playthrough) but the player's efforts *will* have an impact. Battle and war are not pretty, not supposed to be, and they always have a high cost. This being reflected well without punishing the player won't be easy but I'm confident you can pull it off and it'd be another excellent and gameplay enhancing part of the overall experience.

Argenten

Thank you! I'm certainly trying for complex things, so I'm happy there's a target audience that appreciates it - I do find it encouraging!

Sierra Lee

Ah, sorry, didn't mean to give that impression. No, the ending is always the same. The difference between the original and current version is the prologue that hints at the twist like an anvil storm.

Sierra Lee

One thing the border lines obscures is how large the mountains are surrounding Yhilin. It has survived as a kingdom in part because it has to be invaded via passes. But yes, it's right at the center of things!

Sierra Lee

Ohh, that's too bad that there were a bunch of players who couldn't get through the game without handholding. I guess it goes to show how "soft" gaming has become with regards to a player's expectation of games telegraphing what to do. I, for one, applaud your attempt to stretch the boundaries of game design and storytelling. Even for a "short" game Ouroboros had a ton of character and really compelling storytelling. Really, there's a reason I contribute so much, and that's because you really put alot of thought into your game design (plot, gameplay, characters, sound, visuals), not just the run of the mill "I want to make a sexy times game" that most patreon game authors approach it. Don't get discouraged Sierra!

Vitreous Humour

Does this mean the ouroborus ending if different then it should be and is there a "intended" version somewhere?

Miragian

Hmm. In my head Yhilin wasn't so front and center between Aram and Ardoheim. The doomed king plan is much more interesting now that I realize that it's basically going to be a "surrounded by enemies on all sides with no other enemies in between me and the one I'm really worried about" situation.

Troqu

I agree with Ljosapaldr and Shadow, pretty much how I pictured it. You did a very good job writing the descriptions in game so far. I was unclear on quite how Darghelon and Gheldaron fit into things, but everything else makes sense. Also, if you tilt that map about 45 degrees left, you get the world maps already in-game to line up perfectly. Nicely done!

Rafael367

Well done on the map. Almost exactly how I imagined it, which indicates that your portrayed the layout very well in the story thusfar.

The map is pretty different from what I had in my head.

Nineanon

Ooo maps! The map is lovely!

Dream Fractal

If anyone is wondering why the line break after the first sentence is missing... Patreon's editor is not WYSIWYG in weird ways. Right now it feels easier not to fight it.

Sierra Lee